Political Flame War (Split from Found my Next Truck)

[Kaan]

For every horrible act you can think of, no matter how morally wrong, there comes a time when that act is no longer wrong. Look at the rape of a small child - horrible, immoral, and evil. Now what if you were put in the position that you had to rape a kid or a room full of 50 hostages would be shot? Would you do it? Is it still wrong at that point in time? You still have a choice.

as long as it didnt happen in Russia... you wouldnt have an issue... those holding the children would die... just think ruby ridge and waco the kids all got out

[damnit458]

Jackoff let the dog off the chain... lets get into this... dont get quiet on me.

Sorry, i was at union station getting coffee =D

[Kaan]

well on that note, i'm doing my bosses job, my job, and having a lovely political debate... i'll be off smoking a nice camel light...

bring the pain!

[damnit458]

your philosophy would bring the world to anarchy. Murder is wrong... Rape is wrong... if you want to know why... because the majority says so. the majority will always control the minority until the minority is no longer that... through convincing others and legal protests... through logic... not with your quack ideas of right and wrong.

This is blatant subjectivism, blatant cultural subjectivism. You're saying that if you grew up 150 years ago you would agree that slavery is right? Or, by you moving to another country, you automatically change what you think is right and wrong to match up with their laws? While I agree that our culture severely molds our thoughts, and notions of right and wrong, I believe that there are certain things that we hold to be wrong, no matter what. Although this again,will be hotly debated.

There is a difference between abiding laws, and abiding what you believe to be the general guidelines of right and wrong in life.

Edit: Your idea about logic also fits into this debate. What is logical? What makes an arguement logical? What is logical now (the planets rotating arround the sun) was not logical about 600 years back...

[ViPER1313]

All I am trying to say is that I you cant outright tell somebody else their political or religious belief structure is wrong based on your own ideals. You can argue that there is an absolute right and wrong based off the fact that we have a concept of right and wrong to begin with (ex.. grey proves black and white exist.) The problem I see is that no one ever has seen black and white, morals change on a daily basis, and other cultures hold completely different beliefs than our own. Prime examples:

-Genital mutilation in Africa performed on young girls. This is done by older women. We as Americans look at it as barbaric, they see it as tradition. Is it wrong?

-Hitting children. 50 years ago it was acceptable for teachers to discipline children in the classroom, parents physically corrected their children for misbehavior. Now if you donÔÇÖt "spare the rod" you are a bad parent with anger problems. Was it wrong before, is it wrong now?

[Feersty]

-Hitting children. 50 years ago it was acceptable for teachers to discipline children in the classroom, parents physically corrected their children for misbehavior. Now if you donÔÇÖt "spare the rod" you are a bad parent with anger problems. Was it wrong before, is it wrong now?

It was wrong before and is wrong now, it is just that it was part of our social structure to discipline a child in such a way. Now it isn't because parents have wised up to the problems it can create when those children become adults, thus changing laws regarding such discipline as well.

[Kaan]

my arguement is based on majority and minority. if i move to another country where i am the minority i dont bomb places or set things on fire. I react in the legal relm to change things... OR i get the fuck out.

slavery was defeated. the majority won. think on my level to defeat me or your examples will fall short.

i beleive children are still spanked to this day by the majority of parents...

Genital mutilation is not condoned in this country, and its considered a political issue where you can leave your country and come to the US and GB as a sanctuary.

btw my morals dont change on a daily basis

[damnit458]

-Hitting children. 50 years ago it was acceptable for teachers to discipline children in the classroom, parents physically corrected their children for misbehavior. Now if you donÔÇÖt "spare the rod" you are a bad parent with anger problems. Was it wrong before, is it wrong now?

It was wrong before and is wrong now, it is just that it was part of our social structure to discipline a child in such a way. Now it isn't because parents have wised up to the problems it can create when those children become adults, thus changing laws regarding such discipline as well.

But our social structure usually is formed arround those things which we hold to be good and right. Why was it that people thought they should discipline a child that way?

[Kaan]

It was wrong before and is wrong now, it is just that it was part of our social structure to discipline a child in such a way. Now it isn't because parents have wised up to the problems it can create when those children become adults, thus changing laws regarding such discipline as well.

Feersty get out... I was spanked as a child... I dont murder, hit women, rape, etc. the majority of people dont... and they were "spanked" or even "beaten." take your ideology and raise your kids that way, i'll take mine and raise them my way.

edit: just stop getting stuck on the little stuff will you!?!?!

[damnit458]

my arguement is based on majority and minority. if i move to another country where i am the minority i dont bomb places or set things on fire. I react in the legal relm to change things... OR i get the fuck out.

slavery was defeated. the majority won. think on my level to defeat me or your examples will fall short.

In what way have you won? Slavery has been outlawed for 150 years. How long was it institutionalized? Hundreds, and hundreds of years. Your thinking in the here and now. Right and wrong transcends time and space, or atleast it should. Even you acknowledge this idea in what you say. By moving somewhere and trying to change their laws, you are expressing your view, saying that although the majority might be incharge, you dont think what they believe is RIGHT. Your saying that there is something in you that believes right and wrong transcends cultural ideas. That has to apply to everywhere, not just places that dont agree with you.

[Kaan]

right and wrong is based on the majority. in the instance of slavery... activist convinced people that it was wrong... and it was changed. the Majority/Minority arguement always works out... because even the Minority will one day be the Majority.

[.RJ]

It was wrong before and is wrong now, it is just that it was part of our social structure to discipline a child in such a way. Now it isn't because parents have wised up to the problems it can create when those children become adults, thus changing laws regarding such discipline as well.

The pussification of america.

[Kaan]

if your arguements were any good you should be able to convince me to think otherwise... turning the minority to the majority slowly... its happend, i've changed my mind on "issues" before... i grew up in the political world... i've milled things over even at a young age. i actually take a much harsher stance on things than my parents do.

[ViPER1313]

activist convinced people that it was wrong... and it was changed. the Majority/Minority arguement always works out... because even the Minority will one day be the Majority.

Sounds like you could be a terrorist 8)

[damnit458]

right and wrong is based on the majority. in the instance of slavery... activist convinced people that it was wrong... and it was changed. the Majority/Minority arguement always works out... because even the Minority will one day be the Majority.

Minority and majority of what? This neighborhood? This state? This country? Where do you draw the line.

[Kaan]

sure i could. but "terrorist" do things in an illegal manner... and i speak in the legal manner

[damnit458]

activist convinced people that it was wrong... and it was changed. the Majority/Minority arguement always works out... because even the Minority will one day be the Majority.

Sounds like you could be a terrorist 8)

I find it highly probably that Kaan could be a terrorist. Therefore, we should all invade his house, search, destroy, and throw one hell of a party.

[Kaan]

invade my house. all my guns are registered and legal now that the brady bill has fallen.

remember i do have the right to defend my home so dont break in, just knock.

[Kaan]

oh and all modifications were made after the fact... all magazines purchased after the fact. so IF you liberals ever do that again, i'm grandfathered anyway.

[damnit458]

if your arguements were any good you should be able to convince me to think otherwise... turning the minority to the majority slowly... its happend, i've changed my mind on "issues" before... i grew up in the political world... i've milled things over even at a young age. i actually take a much harsher stance on things than my parents do.

Another point thats been bugging me :wink: . You think the minority and majority has changed because of logical arguements? More often than not, that minority and majority change because of war. Enter slavery once again.