question about oil starvation

[ScottyB]

well on my way home from work today, i took the on-ramp i usually do, except the Gods of lateral g's smiled on me and there was no traffic on the ramp, for the first time in just about forever. so i circled the on-ramp rather spiritedly, and as i was going around....i began to think about what the fluids in my car were doing at that moment. which brings me to my question....what are the odds/danger that a mostly stock car on high perf. street tires has of starving itself of oil in a prolonged turn?

i know magazines test stock cars all the time on skidpads will no recorded effects. i have also, from experience, never had or even could tell if my car was having any issues from cornering on a few good back roads turns. is it even possible to starve my car of oil unless im on seriously grippy ass R compounds on very high g corners, like on a road course? i know RJ runs a baffled pan, what about you, Evan? Gerald? i know some other MM'ers drive on roadcourses too....do you all use baffled pans, or can you get away without one as long as you're on lower grip street tires that dont enable really high g cornering? also, due to the orientation of an oil pan on a transverse vs. longitudinal engine, does one setup favor cornering g's to the other? it seems since most cars dont come with a baffled pan from the factory, is there really a concern?

ultimately im just scared that if i hit a ramp, or long corner hard enough (eventually i'll be on the track too), will i be able to starve my engine of oil flow to the head and what not...and i'm not exactly going to pour more oil in the engine to keep the oil pickup happy. any insight would be appreciated, especially from the track rats. sorry for the long post too, i just wanted to make sure i hit everything. oh, and for the record, im not taking turns recklessly....far from it. just enjoying my tires from time to time

[.RJ]

I would not worry about it for street/autox.

[BLINGMW]

I would. Depends entirely on the car. Now for the street, on street tires, it's unlikely to be a concern in any car, just keep the oil topped off. But for autocrossing or driving schools and on up, certian cars DO have problems with oil starvation. Being a BMW guy for the time being, I know that the '92-'99 325, 328, 323, and M3's ALL suffer from oil starvation under certian conditions. Oh, throw the Z3's and M-coupes in there too. And this from a company that's supposed to make cars that are designed to be driven in these conditions! Most owners solve the problem by running a half quart over the top mark on the dipstick, I did the same and had no problems with mine. But I heard stories and heard from a few customers that were shopping for new engines and/or engine work, even in fairly new M's because they'd taken it to an autocross, slung it around, now their valves were making all kinds of noise, and they hadn't over-revved it.

The '95 M3 Lightweight, which has the same engine as the regular M3 but is setup for track use, is the only one that came with a baffled oil pan, as well as dual pickups, most likely because BMW knew the stock oil system was a bit underdesigned for track use. And trust me, M3 owners are constantly on the lookout for these oilpans or copies... expensive insurance for their expensive motors. So it's definatly a concern for E36 BMW owners, but that's the only example I know of. I would definatly find out from people who track your car and know more about your motor if it's a concern or not. Fortunatly my little 318's oil system does not suffer from such maladies from those I've asked. :wink:

[ScottyB]

thanks for the replies guys. as it is right now i use a half quart over the recommended amount of oil for insurance. i just dont like the idea of pouring much more than that in.

i had no idea the bmw motors had such an issue with this! i would think the oiling system would take a very high priority. i'll have to talk to some dudes with accord and find out what they've done, even though my car will probably only see the track once or twice if at all before i move onto a better platform.

[Beej]

Meh, this might be kinda off-topic.

Channing, how much have you looked into this? Mine has flicked on once during an autocross, but I was just low and topped it off. If I keep it above halfway between the marks, I never seem to have such issues.

But pretty much all e30 M3 owners baffle their S14's. Granted, they track their cars more than most 318 owners, but our oil pan setups (and engines in general) are so similar that it makes me wonder if we should baffle it. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the baffles sold for M3's (full baffles, not additions to the stock ones) can go right into our oil pans. I know of a few 2002 owners that baffle theirs.

Scotty, that's an interesting point you bring up about the transverse vs. longitudinal engines. I dunno what your ass-backwards FWD oil pans look like, but I am curious. Don't forget though...too much oil can be just as bad as not enough. I'll never go above the top mark.

[Mike]

Scott, as your car sits you have nothing to worry about. Even on R tires.

[ScottyB]

Scotty, that's an interesting point you bring up about the transverse vs. longitudinal engines. I dunno what your ass-backwards FWD oil pans look like, but I am curious. Don't forget though...too much oil can be just as bad as not enough. I'll never go above the top mark.

well, with a transverse pan the pickup is on one side (in my case the drivers side). that would lead me to think that depending on the direction of the turn, oil starvation would be more an issue than with a symetrical pan like in a longitudinal engine, with the pickup at the back.

and yeah, i'm def. aware that too much oil is a big no no. even though my car doesnt use a drop, i always check it, and dont like the thought of being outside the factory oil level whether that be up or down. i figure a half a quart or under isnt a big deal though, and so thats the most i would ever consider overfilling.

[.RJ]

Most honda pans are baffled to some extent, but I dont know about the F-motors. Even though the pickup is on one side, its on the side that holds all the oil.

The problem you really get into is when you start combing accel/decel and cornering - thats when the motor starves.

[Dave]

Fortunatly my little 318's oil system does not suffer from such maladies from those I've asked. :wink:

Needs to be able to go through turns quickly in order to starve the engine fool :wink:
An interesting topic. I've never had any problems with oil on the supra (read: the dummy light has never come on). However, my old eclipse (1.8L coupe) would flash the low oil light sometimes when I was going around a turn pretty fast, which I usually interpreted as "time to fill up the oil tank" . Yeah, I was a far cry from the intelligent car owner (if you can call me that) that I am now.

[CaptainHenreh]

KA24 oil pans are baffled, with a huge oil pickup, located pretty close to the bottom of the pan.

And forged internals.

And oil cooled pistons.

And a closed-deck iron block.



I need money!

But as far as oil starvation goes, I never had a problem with my DSM, and my KA is in such poor shape that I wouldn't know.

[BLINGMW]

Channing, how much have you looked into this? Mine has flicked on once during an autocross, but I was just low and topped it off. If I keep it above halfway between the marks, I never seem to have such issues.

haven't looked into it a ton, but I haven't seen other people racing M10's with baffled oil pans, and no mention of it on other forums and lists, although some recommend oil coolers. The S14 pan might fit, I don't know, but that's how some do the oil cooler, by stealing S14 parts. I personally haven't had a problem as long as the oil was close to the top mark. With an oil pressure gauge (hopefully coming soon), maybe I'll be able to better verify it. But M10's have been on the track a long long time, I'm sure the problem would be well documented if it existed?

and yes, about going over the top mark, Walmart did that for my parents' Camry years ago and got to pay for new valve guides. :roll:

Needs to be able to go through turns quickly in order to starve the engine fool :wink:

yes. thank you Dave. Someone had to say it I guess!

[Beej]

haven't looked into it a ton, but I haven't seen other people racing M10's with baffled oil pans, and no mention of it on other forums and lists, although some recommend oil coolers. The S14 pan might fit, I don't know, but that's how some do the oil cooler, by stealing S14 parts. I personally haven't had a problem as long as the oil was close to the top mark. With an oil pressure gauge (hopefully coming soon), maybe I'll be able to better verify it. But M10's have been on the track a long long time, I'm sure the problem would be well documented if it existed?

What's the s14 oil pan have to do with the cooler? The cooler just has a different filter housing and that's what the hoses connect to. I have one that I'll mount up (hopefully it'll fit, the gasket part #'s are the same) whenever I get around to it. Good point on the age of m10's though, these things have been around forever.

[BLINGMW]

got nothing to do with it. It was just another oil related, block related part that gets stolen from S14's that I figured was worth mentioning.

[SupraBlur]

It's noteworthy that this is a major cause of engine wear on the Toyota M-series engine (7M-GTE, etc). It's not uncommon for 7M's to develop rod knock after multiple canyon runs even though adequately topped off. The long stroke associated with it, as well as the Nissan KA24DE, make proper lubrication that much more important.

This was addressed in the later JZ series (1JZ, 2JZ) by having the baffled dual oil pan design, so that the pump has a ready supply of oil, regardless of lateral movement.

-Ray

[.RJ]

FWIW - my oil pan

[Mike]

Always so eager to post pictures...

[.RJ]

Eat a D

[ECEtiger]

In case you guys have never made it deep into the south to experience the trailer track...aka Roebling Road...let me tell you a little story.

You breathe on the brakes in 5, rotate a bit and plant the rear coming out of the turn. Six, 7, 8 and 9 comprise a non-stop accelerating right turn in which you lift slightly at the crest after 7 to shift to 4th gear. I hit the front straight at 90mph to the sound of clack-clack-clack-clack...

Spun the #3 rod bearing on a stock miata engine.

After pulling in, I was 1.5 qts low on oil!?! I had just checked it Thursday! The consequence? I replaced the engine and missed two track events.

Needless to say, I now run .25 qts too much at all times and check it 50 times a day during track events. I have seen as much as 1 qt disappear from my dipstick only to return a few min later. I am currently investigating solutions to this problem, and may even up the ante for a dry sump system soon.

Sam

[.RJ]

Pull your stock pan off and have baffles welded in.

No need to run overfull then I do not run overfull, and usually slightly underfull. I burn about 1/2qt per weekend (driving 8-10 sessions).

[ScottyB]

I have seen as much as 1 qt disappear from my dipstick only to return a few min later. I am currently investigating solutions to this problem, and may even up the ante for a dry sump system soon.

Sam

maybe the stock pump flows too much? ive heard stories of non-turbo eclipses spinning rod bearings due to the oil pump flowing too much oil to the head at high rpms....maybe it's something similar in miatas, especially considering the oil returns in time. just a guess.