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+--- Thread: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. (/showthread.php?tid=8972)
Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - SlimKlim - 07-22-2010
Everyday more and more manuals are lost to laziness. Do your part, save a manual today.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/10q3/save_the_manuals!-car_and_driver
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - TorinoCobra070 - 07-22-2010
Jake already invited me to this on the facespace. :thumbup:
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Jake - 07-22-2010
TorinoCobra070 Wrote:Jake already invited me to this on the facespace. :thumbup:
And I saw the promo video on the TwitTubes.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Sijray21 - 07-22-2010
i feel very passionate about this. i joined
DSG, SMG, and other sequential paddle-shifters are NOT manual transmissions. i care not about technicalities. it's about a gear shift and a clutch pedal.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - BLINGMW - 07-25-2010
"Contact Your Local Representative" :?:
"Will it make a difference?" Uh.... no?
Is there really anything that can be done? The only people to convince are the auto manufacturers. And they probably have a lot of sales numbers that are hard to argue with. Why, when introducing a new car, would you want to go through the added expense of having two transmission options when maybe just one DSG type thing satisfies 98% of the actual potential buyers?
Maybe we should embrace such a thing? I mean, it's a pain to find manual versions of some cars on the used market and the scarcity sometimes keeps their prices higher. What if all cars had a transmission that could be auto-smooth for your mom but also could be faster and more controllable than a manual? And it was more reliable than either as well? That's hard to argue with. :dunno:
Hey, I like the clutch too. But I don't see many people complaining about the lack of a fuel trim knob or choke. The arguments I can think of for those are very similar. And the clutch will disappear for the same reason.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - SlimKlim - 07-25-2010
^ No. I've heard the choke and trim thing before. Choking an old car was not an integral part of the driving experience, shifting is an enormous part. I understand why car makers are offering them less and less, but that isn't going to make me like it.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - BLINGMW - 07-25-2010
SlimKlim Wrote:^ No. I've heard the choke and trim thing before.
heh really? I thought I was quite clever making that up!
But really, we're not talking about shifting. We're specifically talking about the clutch, right? DSG and the like don't take away shifting. Clutch pedal actuation seems like a pretty good parallel to trim and choke.
Of course, with electric cars, shifting's pretty much gone too. I doubt any of us has driven one, but don't you think it would be hard to argue that the Tesla roadster or the like isn't a fun to drive car? If 20 years from now just about all cars are electric, and even cheaper ones have rubber melting torque available from 1 RPM, are much more reliable, simpler to maintain and understand, and you can do motor swaps in an afternoon, are we still going to be that sad about the loss of the shifter?
Kind of reminds me of people complaining about CVTs and wanting them to "shift", so the manufacturers make them do that. "No, I don't want the engine to operate at peak torque and accelerate the car as quickly as possible, I want it to shift!"
Off topic really, we're talking about the clutch.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Mike - 07-26-2010
Not off topic, but this "cause" is just another form of chain letter.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - G.Irish - 07-26-2010
BLINGMW Wrote:"Contact Your Local Representative" :?:
"Will it make a difference?" Uh.... no?
Is there really anything that can be done? The only people to convince are the auto manufacturers. And they probably have a lot of sales numbers that are hard to argue with. Why, when introducing a new car, would you want to go through the added expense of having two transmission options when maybe just one DSG type thing satisfies 98% of the actual potential buyers?
Maybe we should embrace such a thing? I mean, it's a pain to find manual versions of some cars on the used market and the scarcity sometimes keeps their prices higher. What if all cars had a transmission that could be auto-smooth for your mom but also could be faster and more controllable than a manual? And it was more reliable than either as well? That's hard to argue with. :dunno:
Hey, I like the clutch too. But I don't see many people complaining about the lack of a fuel trim knob or choke. The arguments I can think of for those are very similar. And the clutch will disappear for the same reason.
^^^ What he said ^^^
There's a certain pleasure in gaining mastery of a manual transmission but I'm not at all against DSG's. And like Chan said, if a manufacturer can satisfy the lazy driver who wants an automatic and the performance-minded driver who wants something that shifts faster at the same time, why not? Sure a DSG doesn't feel as involving as a true manual but it's a trade-off I'd take. Especially because for a lot of cars the take rate on manuals is so low it just doesn't make sense for manufacturers to offer them. If we could at least get a DSG it'd be a pretty happy compromise IMO.
The bonus of a DSG is that it frees up your left foot up for braking. For momentum cars that can be a huge plus, but even on more powerful cars it gives you an extra tool in balancing the car and slinging it around tight corners.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Jake - 07-26-2010
1) I love me some heel-toe downshifts. Yes, a DSG can do it for you, but part of the fun is being able to do it yourself.
B) DSG is cool, and worlds better than a traditional auto, but... my biggest hangup is that you can't downshift/upshift and skip a gear or two. Sometimes I want to downshift from 5 to 3. I don't want to hit the (-) button twice and have it go 'brap' 'brap' - I just want it to skip 4th all together.
3) My experiences with CVT automatics have been in several Nissans (of varying power/cylinder amounts) and my rental Dodge Caliber freshman year. They all suck.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Ryan T - 07-26-2010
Jake Wrote:1) I love me some heel-toe downshifts. Yes, a DSG can do it for you, but part of the fun is being able to do it yourself.
B) DSG is cool, and worlds better than a traditional auto, but... my biggest hangup is that you can't downshift/upshift and skip a gear or two. Sometimes I want to downshift from 5 to 3. I don't want to hit the (-) button twice and have it go 'brap' 'brap' - I just want it to skip 4th all together.
3) My experiences with CVT automatics have been in several Nissans (of varying power/cylinder amounts) and my rental Dodge Caliber freshman year. They all suck.
The "I don't want to hit the buttom twice" argument is sorta dumb. If you tap it fast enough (even two taps is still probably faster than you could push the clutch in and gear down) you'll never know it engaged 4th gear at all.
I never thought I'd be a fan of CVTs, but Sams 09 Altima has a CVT and I really like it. It may get a lil confused on your throttle input from time to time, but not enough to cause a problem. And when your in a little bit sportier mood (as sporty as you can get an a 4-cylinder altima at least) pop it over in manual mode and drive it that way.
Are clutches fun? Sure. Are they being phased out? Sure. Does it bother me? Nope. Technology has always phased out older technology, some facet of the population always fights against it, and in the end technology almost always wins.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - BLINGMW - 07-26-2010
Jake Wrote:1) I love me some heel-toe downshifts.me too! But let's admit: heel-toe is a workaround for a less than optimal user interface. Like learning to use the QWERTY keyboard.
Jake Wrote:Sometimes I want to downshift from 5 to 3.Good point. Sometimes I go from like, 2 to 5. Isn't this technically possible? Hypothetically speaking, you could have a whole gated shifter to control the DSG, couldn't you? That would be kind of silly, so maybe just have a little thumb button on the side of the stick. If you just slap it to + or -, you get one gear. Hold it on + or - and thumb the button twice and you get 3 gears. So if we do offer feedback to manufacturers, shouldn't we be asking for things like this instead of asking for them to bring back the choke knob?
Ryan T Wrote:The "I don't want to hit the buttom twice" argument is sorta dumb. If you tap it fast enough (even two taps is still probably faster than you could push the clutch in and gear down) you'll never know it engaged 4th gear at all.Of course, if this is the case, then it seems like a non-issue.
Jake Wrote:My experiences with CVT automatics have been in several Nissans (of varying power/cylinder amounts) and my rental Dodge Caliber freshman year. They all suck.Yeah, they might! And sure, not shifting sounds pretty odd (only from my Prius experiences), but you get used to it. But I can imagine a CVT with manual control that would be like: P, R, N, D, 3, 5. First 4 are hopefully obvious. "3" and "5" would be "hold at approximately that RPM". So you go on track, put that bitch in 5, and that's where it stays. Full throttle it floats up to 5500RPM, let off or brake and it gives you some engine braking and floats down to 4500 at the lowest. Engine's always ready for you and always at torque peak. Even from a standstill, it winds to 4500 and is ready for launch. 3 would be for towing or a hilly road where you're tired of the engine going to sleep on you and want some engine braking downhill too. I don't know if there's some technical reason CVTs can't handle this (maybe they explode?), but wouldn't that badass? Certainly much better than a "sport" mode that forces the CVT to "shift".
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - terdcivic - 07-26-2010
I think what it comes down to mainly is that shifting a car well is a point of pride for a lot of people. It differentiates manual drivers from people who just know how to hit the gas and brake and let the car do more work.
I definitely take pride in being able to perfectly rev match, heel/toe, and even shift my manual without the clutch, just because I know my car and can read the feedback pretty well. Also makes me feel very safe knowing that if in a freak event i have multiple ways to disengage the engine from the wheels.
Lastly I think it's a great way to occupy myself while I'm driving...I find myself bored to tears driving my girl's Scion at times and thinking how much better it would be if it were manual.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - D_Eclipse9916 - 07-26-2010
DSG/SMG whatever the fuck will replace it eventually I realize (which kinda sucks), but its way faster and for 99% of the occasions id actually rather have that. But the ability to slip a clutch, bring up revs to certain amounts with certain cluttch slippage, putt the car etc I do enjoy and lack that in a dsg/smg. A true semimanual like an f1 box I loved, but good god the DSG in VWs is a piece of shit, and I honestly havent driven an m3 with an smg, but if its anything like VW, id rather have a mercedes AMG full automatic.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Jake - 07-26-2010
BLINGMW Wrote:Jake Wrote:My experiences with CVT automatics have been in several Nissans (of varying power/cylinder amounts) and my rental Dodge Caliber freshman year. They all suck.Yeah, they might! And sure, not shifting sounds pretty odd (only from my Prius experiences), but you get used to it. But I can imagine a CVT with manual control that would be like: P, R, N, D, 3, 5. First 4 are hopefully obvious. "3" and "5" would be "hold at approximately that RPM". So you go on track, put that bitch in 5, and that's where it stays. Full throttle it floats up to 5500RPM, let off or brake and it gives you some engine braking and floats down to 4500 at the lowest. Engine's always ready for you and always at torque peak. Even from a standstill, it winds to 4500 and is ready for launch. 3 would be for towing or a hilly road where you're tired of the engine going to sleep on you and want some engine braking downhill too. I don't know if there's some technical reason CVTs can't handle this (maybe they explode?), but wouldn't that badass? Certainly much better than a "sport" mode that forces the CVT to "shift".
This is my biggest issue with the CVTs that I've experienced so far. Conceptually, I like that it will hold the engine at ideal RPM for whatever you are doing... i.e. full throttle = power peak. In real life, it doesn't always work so well. The Nissan boxes get confused, as Ryan says, if you provide too much input too quickly. Day-to-day it's no big deal, but I don't think they'd do well in a track or autocross application.
And maybe it's because two of the CVTs have been in small 4-cylinder cars (Caliber and Rogue) but damn do both of the engines/transmissions drone so much when you ask for more than 2k RPM.
terdcivic Wrote:I think what it comes down to mainly is that shifting a car well is a point of pride for a lot of people. It differentiates manual drivers from people who just know how to hit the gas and brake and let the car do more work.
This. Any ol' tri-Delt or tri-Sig can get in their silver E46 325i automatic that Daddy bought them and putter around town and NEVER know what anything other than P, R and D mean on that big lever thing in between the two front seats. Part of the responsibility of owning and driving a 3,500+ lb. weapon is understanding its' operation. It blows my mind when you mention "gears" and "RPM" or "tachometer" and you get a blank stare in return. I understand the general population doesn't care for cars beyond "A to B" but come on now...
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Evan - 07-26-2010
this petition is retarded. only way to make a difference is to vote with your wallet.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - ViPER1313 - 07-26-2010
Evan Wrote:this petition is retarded. only way to make a difference is to vote with your wallet.+1. Automatics, manuals and DSGs all have their places in the world of automobiles. Sadly, auto manufacturers are in the car making business to make money, not to make the 5% of people who won't buy a car without a manual transmission happy.
A great example of this decision making can be seen on the new SHO. Many original SHO owners and enthusiasts asked for a manual option, but Ford ignored them because those people don't have 45k to buy a new automobile, and they don't make up the majority of the car's demographic. The overwhelming majority of people who do have that cash and shop the luxury sport-sedan segment seem to want an automatic, and historically ATX SHOs have outsold MTXs by 3 to 1, so Ford chose not to spend tons of R&D coin on an manual for the car.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - SlimKlim - 07-26-2010
This whole goddamned world is going to hell in a two-pedaled econobox.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Jake - 07-26-2010
SlimKlim Wrote:This whole goddamned world is going to hell in a two-pedaled econobox.
![[Image: dodge_caliber017.JPG]](http://gallery.carreview.com/data/car/529/medium/dodge_caliber017.JPG)
![[Image: 340x.gif]](http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v687/icebook1/340x.gif)
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Ken - 07-27-2010
Yeesh I can already picture Jake ad Joey standing on their front porch waving a broom and yelling at the young "whipper snappers" to get of their front lawn because, "back in their day..."
Anyway as an owner of a twin Clutch transmission I'm very happy. Granted I don't know manual but in my defense I wanted this car and it's the only transmission it came in.
I don't believe manuals will be replaced, they will always have a place on the track and are the ideal way to manage a vehicle. That being said a transmission like mine is a great compromise, I couldnot be more appreciative during long island/NYC rush hour.
As for tapping it twice to downshift two gears? You don't notice gear inbetween, change is too quick.