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+--- Thread: How free market are you? (/showthread.php?tid=7479)
How free market are you? - JackoliciousLegs - 07-18-2008
Answer (it really is a yes or no) and discuss..
- mrbaggio - 07-18-2008
Freddie Mac is run by a pack of muppets. They both deserve the down turn. It's unfortunate that it will stifle the economy.
- Ginger0 - 07-18-2008
More back pocket expenses in the name of "supporting" the economy? More inflation? More perpetuating and encouraging poor business practices by providing a moral hazard to practice leaders? No, thank you, I'll pass. The ensuing recession will be shorter if we just let what will happen, happen, the more we try and prevent it, the worse we'll make it on ourselves.
..
........ after all, if we could really "fix" the economy, or regulate it into wealth, or prevent downturns, or whatever freakishly arrogant, omniscient belief people seem to have in our ability to just snap our fingers away from the "failings of capitalism" - why don't we just regulate ourselves all rich? It doesn't work in full, and it, in turn, doesn't work in small parts.
- JackoliciousLegs - 07-18-2008
I'm not arguing, just asking a question... what about the people that had faith in these large institutions? They relied on them for housing and education. Two necessities for a successful society. If the lenders can't pay, it's not low income people losing their houses. It's everyday people. That sucks. I kinda agree about not bailing out, but that suuuuucks. What do we do? How do we prevent it in the future? Does this fall under the domain of consumer protection? I dunno.
- Ginger0 - 07-18-2008
I don't disagree that it sucks, and I don't think any economist would, but it's better than the disastrous alternative of a managed economy. Every time we try and "fix" this sort of thing, we end up making things worse... and we suffer from a sort of economic amnesia, in which the few people that remember the last time say "oh, but this is different."
I don't really believe in regulatory consumer protection. I don't think it's anybody's job but one's own to put faith in an institution. And if you're going to do that, you need to have done the appropriate research yourself. Every time something doesn't work out, a group of people can come forward that really are hurting because of it... and there is no doubt that they're really hurting. But bad things do happen, and I don't really think we can prevent them all just because it's a Good thing to do.
- Ginger0 - 07-18-2008
I didn't really post a complete thought above.
If we knee jerk to the consumer protection mechanism, where does it end? How many rules will we make? One for every scenario? Eventually you work your way into a crippling red tape battle, in which nobody can really function, and consumers are totally frustrated. Unfortunately, I see this kind of thing all the time in the financial services industry. The reality of the situation is the nobody has the incentive to do a proper evaluation of a product or service provider except the consumer. I think we've done a lot to discourage that kind of thought-behavior, which is sad.
I see people blaming banks that they allowed them to take out loans that were too large. The same with houses, and the amount of spending (how could you allow me to overdraw? you *knew* there was nothing in my account, this is your fault, etc.) Nobody can make these deicisions for consumers, because nobody has the intimate knowledge required to make them except each individual consumer.... and the more we discourage that behavior, I think the worse off we'll be.
- Evan - 07-18-2008
Im [almost] as free market as Andrew, but Im torn about this one.
The consequences of them going under are pretty extreme. something like 30-40% of mortgages in the entire country are held with the FM twins. They opened up home ownership in this country on a scale that is unprecedented. The positive effects of home ownership on the economy are huge.
If the FMs go under, the lower and middle class housing markets collapse and the stock market goes in the shitter even more.
Is this correction ultimately a good thing (Free market) and just a bitter pill we must swallow as a result of the FMs dicking with the free market in the first place, or is it such an extreme blow that it will take years and years (or never) to recover?
Is the cost of the bailout less than the damage to the economy?
Is the cost (and I mean cost in many ways) of the FMs more or less than the good it does to the economy?
I wish I could trust the polticians and that dickbag Bernanke to do what was best for the long term health of our country and economy. But I can't. They are too interested in short term pandering, placating the media, and getting re-elected.
- ViPER1313 - 07-18-2008
I voted yes (seems I am the only one) - as I see it, all these wild swings in the stock market, lack of confidence in the banking industry and investors puling funds from the market are self fulfilling - as soon as people stock freaking the fuck out everything will return to normal. IMO, the last thing the economy needs right now is to have 30-40% of mortgages in the entire country go up on the auction block when FM goes under - my thoughts being that it would erode investor confidence to the point where it set off a string of bank failures, more foreclosures, etc..
Then again, I'm not an economist so what do I know.
- JackoliciousLegs - 07-18-2008
Evan, wow... maybe it's because I'm wasted at work, but I'm worried at how liberal you sound noww
- D_Eclipse9916 - 07-20-2008
I wont get into this too much, but how did the government see fit to put those two in charge, doesnt that almost touch on the side of monopoly? I mean they are in charge of almost 6 trillion out of 12 trillion dollars worth of mortgages. Why didnt anyone see this coming?
- mrbaggio - 07-21-2008
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:I wont get into this too much, but how did the government see fit to put those two in charge, doesnt that almost touch on the side of monopoly? I mean they are in charge of almost 6 trillion out of 12 trillion dollars worth of mortgages. Why didnt anyone see this coming?
The current problems have nothing to do with a "monopoly." Every company (there are more than just the FMs) that is in the secondary mortgage market is feeling the same hurt.
- Ginger0 - 07-21-2008
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:I wont get into this too much, but how did the government see fit to put those two in charge
They weren't "put in charge" of anything.
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:doesnt that almost touch on the side of monopoly? I mean they are in charge of almost 6 trillion out of 12 trillion dollars worth of mortgages.
No. There are many criteria that need to be met in order to be considered a monopoly. Barred entry in to the market place is the first, and most important one, which isn't met here. Having a big market share, or even all of it, is not, by itself a "monopolistic" activity, but the media loves to throw the term around because eveybody would rather get mad and throw stones without knowing a damn thing about the economy.
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:Why didnt anyone see this coming
Lots of us did. However, politicians pander to the lowest common denominator. The LCD doesn't want to actually know what the real problems and solutions are in the economy, they'd much rather get really verbal about what they THINK the problems are and what they THINK the solutions are (see my verbal assault on a LaRouche'ite outside the DMV as a prime example). Even as we speak, the government is being lobbied to "fix" the economy in response to public outcry.... see my above post in response to "fixing" it.
- JackoliciousLegs - 07-21-2008
I was talking about this with coworkers last friday. What are you going to do with your money?
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- mrbaggio - 07-21-2008
Stopped reading here: "First and foremost, letÔÇÖs discuss my qualifications in this area; I know jack shit."
- WRXtranceformed - 07-21-2008
I'm going to leave it. Succombing to panic is what causes a depression. Every time you put money somewhere there is a risk...what are you going to do like that guy said, stuff a fireproof safe full of cash?
- Ginger0 - 07-21-2008
![[Image: chicken_little.jpg]](http://www.lasplash.com/uploads/1/chicken_little.jpg)
- .RJ - 07-21-2008
JackoliciousLegs Wrote:What are you going to do with your money?
Invest in vintage motorcycles.
- Evan - 07-21-2008
mrbaggio Wrote:Stopped reading here: "First and foremost, letÔÇÖs discuss my qualifications in this area; I know jack shit."Stopped reading here: "http://www.dailykos.com"
- PGK - 07-21-2008
.RJ Wrote:JackoliciousLegs Wrote:What are you going to do with your money?
Invest in vintage motorcycles.
I'm gonna put my money in tulips
- mrbaggio - 08-06-2008
FRE just took it on the chin today. Ouch.