+- Madison Motorsports (https://forum.mmsports.org)
+-- Forum: Technical (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Technical Discussion (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=11)
+--- Thread: E85..great for boost? (/showthread.php?tid=6589)
E85..great for boost? - Steve85 - 10-18-2007
I was reading the forced induction section over at corvette forum and came across this setup.
Quote:350 9:1 cr
222-226, 114lsa 0.464"-0.464" (flat tappet) 1.52 rockers
AFR-190
HSR
stock 48mm TPI throttle body
Turbo
Front mount intercooler
E85
627 rwhp @ 4200 RPM. ( 17 psi boost @ 4200 rpm)
he goes on to say...
Quote:Using the same amount of air you need more E85 for a socastic mixture (50% more weight which is 40% more volume as E85 has higher density). Because of the lower energy content in E85 the engine will make almost exactly the same power on E85.
You see the large gains with forced induction and that is for two resons.
1) E85 has higher octane tha gasoline.
2) The cooling effect on Ethanol is much higher. Combined with the fact the more E85 is used the cooling effect on one gallon of air is about 4 times higher with E85 compared to gasoline.
The result is the the engine can handle much more boost without detonation and that is where you find more hp compared to running gasoline
Anybody seen this where turbos are a lot more prevelant? What are they saying about it?
- Maengelito - 10-19-2007
E85 does have less energy content than most gasoline blends. i have no idea if the octane is higher though, but the cooling effect makes sense since you have to use more E85 to have the same energy content. but then again, thats less fuel efficient which i feel is kinda the opposite of using E85 in the first place. i'm sure one could turn up the fuel pressure and see similar numbers for using regular gasoline, but then again, you could also up the E85 as well until your combustion becomes too rich. i guess what i'm trying to say is that it sounds silly that something with less energy content can produce more power, but there are a lot of variables at work here, so it'd be best to ask a chemist.
- Evan - 10-19-2007
if you pump more of the stuff into the engine, then its going to be better! And cheap high octane is great.
but if your fuel system is where you are limited, its going to put out less.
- PDenbigh - 10-19-2007
Evan Wrote:but if your fuel system is where you are limited, its going to put out less.
Have you shared this with RJ? He might find that interesting. :lol:
- D_Eclipse9916 - 10-19-2007
E85 is insane for turboed applications and guys with the ability to tune their own setups. As long as you have a plastic tank (no metal tanks need apply unless treated) and run without rubber seals your good (most aftermarket injectors and lines run viton seals). Also if you have an aluminum rail, it may oxidize, but most people are saying there does not seem to be any effect, but scientifically there should over time.
Now down to E85, its energy is that that 30-33% more must be run to get that "bang" from gasonline. Therefore think of your system like this.......650cc injectors are now down to about 450s, your walbro 255? Damn close to a walbro 190 in terms of power output. You run into having to run larger lines than you would otherwise.
However the benfits to this are insane. First of all, E85 has an "effective octane rating" of about 108. It also burns cooler lowering EGT and engine temps which is why I have been looking to find this stuff near the track or near me, much less expensive for an equivalent race gas that will ironically make the engine run cooler AND with less harmful emissions.
Oh PS, E85 cleans shit out real good, so after your first tank of E85 it is highly suggested to change out your fuel filter from all the shit thats been cleaned out from the tank and lines.
Edit: Also for guys running lambda widebands or widebands based off of lambda, tune for the effective same you would as gasoline, as technically stoich for E85 is like 12:1 so if you were in a boosted application typically you would be tuning for 11:1 which is equivalent to about 8.6:1....however if your running a lambda based system you would still tune for 11:1 and cruise would still read 14.7:1. The o2 will be fine! This makes tuning a shit ton easier, set up a base 11:1, lean it out, add timing or boost until detonation.
- Evan - 10-19-2007
PDenbigh Wrote:Evan Wrote:but if your fuel system is where you are limited, its going to put out less.
Have you shared this with RJ? He might find that interesting. :lol:
see, I was about to make the joke that if you give RJs mom a cupcake, she will be more fun.... :lol:
- .RJ - 10-19-2007
Some more info here:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://forums.corner-carvers.com/showthread.php?t=32040">http://forums.corner-carvers.com/showthread.php?t=32040</a><!-- m -->
- Evan - 10-19-2007
oh and FYI, there are a few E85 stations here in NoVA. arlington and alexandria and one in fairfax iirc.
my truck can run on it so i was curious about it. unfortunately in this area its not any cheaper (net cost) than gasoline, most areas its .50c or so cheaper.
- D_Eclipse9916 - 10-19-2007
Evan, those stations are not available to the public except for the arlington one next to the army/navy base.
For average people its kind of stupid as youll be using more gas, more than you would save per gallon. For those wanting to help the environment or those like me with turboed applications and standalones, it makes a lot of sense.
- Maengelito - 10-19-2007
i preface this post with the following statement: i am in no way trying to start a flame war or debate on global warming, emissions issues, foreign oil dependency, the bush administration, mikey rules, etc.
the thing that pisses me off about E85 being touted as the cleaner fuel to burn for the environment is that its not true. while technically, yes replacing 85% of the volume of petroleum distillate with ethanol is cleaner, the process of growing that corn, harvesting it, shipping it to a processing plant, the energy used to process it, shipping/piping it to whatever holding tank and blending it uses far more energy than using 100% petrol. i understand that its still in development and it will get more efficient, but to say that its cleaner right now is a huge lie.
- D_Eclipse9916 - 10-19-2007
Yeah what I meant by it makes sense for those wanting to help the environment is stupid hippies and their theories, but im not trying to start anything..
PS- OMGZOR!!! I run without a catalytic converter daily and omg...absolutely no emissions equipment is left no my vehicle. Even my fucking breather vents. lol.
- Steve85 - 10-19-2007
Just when you thought the gov't was going to kill the hot rodder they come out with gov't subsidized race gas.
They really should not try to "fix" things anymore.
- HAULN-SS - 10-20-2007
Isn't most of the corn used to make ethanol already being grown anyway? Our food reserves are ridiculous because farmers are subsidized to grow the corn whether we eat it or not. They might as well use it for something - the "pollution" has been there for years.
- CaptainHenreh - 10-20-2007
HAULN-SS Wrote:Isn't most of the corn used to make ethanol already being grown anyway? Our food reserves are teeny tiny, and we're buying wheat from fucking china, because farmers are subsidized to not grow the corn whether we eat it or not. They might as well use it for something - the "pollution" has been there for years.
FTFY.
- HAULN-SS - 10-20-2007
I dunno. I'm in South Dakota right now, and after seeing 1800 miles of corn, i feel like I'm an expert. We went by one place on the side of the road that was literally a 50 foot mountain of corn, just sitting on the ground.
- CaptainHenreh - 10-20-2007
HAULN-SS Wrote:I dunno. I'm in South Dakota right now, and after seeing 1800 miles of corn, i feel like I'm an expert. We went by one place on the side of the road that was literally a 50 foot mountain of corn, just sitting on the ground.
Did you stay in a holiday inn last night?
I was just in South Carolina, and let me tell you, I saw alot of tobacco. A ton. Doesn't make me Phillip Morris.
- Steve85 - 10-20-2007
CaptainHenreh Wrote:HAULN-SS Wrote:Isn't most of the corn used to make ethanol already being grown anyway? Our food reserves are teeny tiny, and we're buying wheat from fucking china, because farmers are subsidized to not grow the corn whether we eat it or not. They might as well use it for something - the "pollution" has been there for years.
FTFY.
Yup...Mr Eliason, mgt professor and Mac user extraordinare has a farm that he is paid by the gov't to not grow anything.
However, since the E85 thing, about 12.5 million more acres were slated for corn than last year. This does a few things...tries to make corn plentiful, it's still not enough so the price goes up and snuffing out land for other crops drives up their price. So additional tax dollars go to subsidize E85 and your food bills go up. Then, take out food and energy, say inflation is flat, lower the fed rate and diminish the buying power of my dollar. Could be living on borrowed time...
Oh well, high "octane" means more HP potential can be built into a combo so WOOHOO.
- Hunter - 10-22-2007
The FSAE car we have here has a turbo E85 motor and it makes more power than we could with pump gas. I had nothing to do with the engine design, but I do know that the E85 killed the fuel pump and injectors on our car from last year after sitting for the summer, and that annoyed me.
Also, if you manage to have lab grade ethanol laying around you can drink it and get real D-runk.
- John L. - 10-26-2007
Corn is a poor source for ethanol, overall net energy loss as some people have said. Switchgrass is a better source for it, or we can get the cellulose-eating bacteria on a roll and might have something.
You're going to want a pump with a stainless steel rotor assembly inside it, I believe Ford F-150s have this type of pump, at least 90s models or something like that. Otherwise though, I haven't heard of problems with ethanol, leaving it sitting might be a bad idea though. People with even late 80s, early 90s mustangs have switched on stock fuel systems and haven't had problems. A guy on Turboford.net tried it in a 2.3T engine and loved it, someone on Turbomustangs.com did it and made over 1000 whp on a turbo V8.