Role of Government - Printable Version

Role of Government - Printable Version

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Role of Government - Andy - 10-09-2007

This article made me ask why righties insist that "big" government is dysfunctional and can't run social welfare programs e.g. social security/welfare/jobs programs but yet can be trusted to run secret wiretap programs, torture etc etc.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/10/09/AR2007100900791.html?hpid=topnews

The inverse of the question is that why lefties insist that big government social programs are great and government is a beneficent character in our lives yet don't trust it to monitor/surveil internal threats.

Cliff notes of the article Tongue

rivate company notified govt of a video that it received from one of its sources. Within the day, a leak with the Bush Admin alerted the news media and AQ was alerted of a leak within it's org.

- CaptainHenreh - 10-09-2007

I'm sorry, that's not a hair question.

(The answer is that "The Government", while seen as a huge, unified entity, is actually the opposite.)

- G.Irish - 10-09-2007

I think it easily boils down to the fact that people in general cannot be trusted to always take the correct action of their own volition. This becomes more true if doing the "wrong" thing can be of potential benefit to them and there is no oversight to prevent them from doing so.

Then there's always the problem of incompetence and human error.

That's why there are checks and balances in our government and that is also why there needs to be sufficient auditing and oversight to prevent wrongdoing and/or incompetence. Whether it is welfare or wiretapping, nothing in the government is immune from people doing the 'wrong thing' either on purpose or by accident.

- Evan - 10-09-2007

are you going to run and fund your own security andy?

government run healthcare is a mistake because it is effectively and competitively solved in the open marketplace.

tell me about privateized open market defense. how would competition and an open market work out on that?

a defense program is government run because it is equally benefitted by all, and cannot NOT be benefited by any resident. Therefore all should pay for that benefit. (ie- if you stop paying your taxes, are you any less protected by our armed forces or intel agencies?) this is, of course, the first tax that people want to weasel out of, because they get the benefits regardless of if they pay into it or not. This is the definition of a service that should be offered by the government.
This is actually closer to a economics issue at heart than a political issue

- Evan - 10-09-2007

as an aside not directly related to my point, but maybe to yours, I have worked for a LOT of government agencies, including intelligence agencies.
The intel agencies care more about the quality of their work, put in more time, more effort and are passionate about doing their jobs. (I bet Chad would agree.) Other gubment agencies? Not so much.

- CaptainHenreh - 10-09-2007

Evan Wrote:are you going to run and fund your own security andy?

- Ginger - 10-09-2007

I have nothing to contribute except that defense and healthcare are two different situations at their core.

Defense is a non-exclusive, free-ridable good. What's the government going to do, not defend YOUR house against foreign threats, but include everybody elses?
Healthcare is the opposite... it's pretty easy to say "no, you don't get healthcare" and "no, we won't cover you".

- Andy - 10-09-2007

Evan Wrote:This is actually closer to a economics issue at heart than a political issue

Interesting insight. I agree that there are concerns that should reside outside of the market. Which ones? That's where democracy comes into play.

The concern I have is that of oversight. It seems like folks on both sides of the field insist on oversight/controls for the aspect of government that they like while insisting that the chunk of govÔÇÖt that they do like should run unfettered.

Rex Wrote:Evan wrote:
are you going to run and fund your own security andy?

With regard to my own views, I donÔÇÖt have a problem paying taxes for my nationÔÇÖs defense so I donÔÇÖt know how you guys arrived on that critique. IÔÇÖm guessing you guys are imposing some preconceived notions on me. But that's neither here nor there.

- Andy - 10-09-2007

G.Irish Wrote:I think it easily boils down to the fact that people in general cannot be trusted to always take the correct action of their own volition. This becomes more true if doing the "wrong" thing can be of potential benefit to them and there is no oversight to prevent them from doing so.

Then there's always the problem of incompetence and human error.

That's why there are checks and balances in our government and that is also why there needs to be sufficient auditing and oversight to prevent wrongdoing and/or incompetence. Whether it is welfare or wiretapping, nothing in the government is immune from people doing the 'wrong thing' either on purpose or by accident.

Agreed, Gerald. Not ideology, not partisan nonsense. Just commonsense and common sense dictates that strong oversight is essential whether it be social programs or defense programs.

- Evan - 10-09-2007

Andy Wrote:
Rex Wrote:Evan wrote:
are you going to run and fund your own security andy?

With regard to my own views, I donÔÇÖt have a problem paying taxes for my nationÔÇÖs defense so I donÔÇÖt know how you guys arrived on that critique. IÔÇÖm guessing you guys are imposing some preconceived notions on me. But that's neither here nor there.

im guessing you're imposing some preconceived notion on my preconceived notion Wink

It was for illustrative purposes and you got it because you started the thread.
sensitive, eh? Wink

- Andy - 10-09-2007

Evan Wrote:
Andy Wrote:
Rex Wrote:Evan wrote:
are you going to run and fund your own security andy?

With regard to my own views, I donÔÇÖt have a problem paying taxes for my nationÔÇÖs defense so I donÔÇÖt know how you guys arrived on that critique. IÔÇÖm guessing you guys are imposing some preconceived notions on me. But that's neither here nor there.
im guessing you're imposing some preconceived notion on my preconceived notion It was for illustrative purposes and you got it because you started the thread.
sensitive, eh?

Stop imposing! . .. my mistake.

Re: Role of Government - Evan - 10-09-2007

Andy Wrote:Cliff notes of the articlerivate company notified govt of a video that it received from one of its sources. Within the day, a leak with the Bush Admin alerted the news media and AQ was alerted of a leak within it's org.

I got a kick out of this

Quote:Within 20 minutes, a range of intelligence agencies had begun downloading it from the company's Web site. By midafternoon that day, the video and a transcript of its audio track had been leaked from within the Bush administration ........ The precise source of the leak remains unknown.

they have no idea if the leak was from "The Bush AdministrationÔäó" , but hey, its so much more fun to blame them!
Whoever did leak it, deserves all the torture tactics that we arent allowed to use on Al qaeda, just like the person who leaked a few years back that we were listening in on OBL's sat phone.

but anyway, I think its great that private firms are doing this. the more eyes the better, and if the market is there for it to be profitable then fantastic. Of course, it will never replace our intel agencies but it will bring a different perspective and the efficiency and speed of a private company.

- Jeff - 10-09-2007

CaptainHenreh Wrote: