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+--- Thread: Donkey racing, with a 600 (/showthread.php?tid=6412)
Donkey racing, with a 600 - .RJ - 09-12-2007
More buzz about moving GP's support classes to 600cc - I dont know how well it will work out as I havent heard much to support it from the current teams. Hopefully they'll come up with something to keep the racing exciting though.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://tinyurl.com/275jsy">http://tinyurl.com/275jsy</a><!-- m --> (I fixed joor link)
Quote:Four-stroke 600cc bikes racing in 2010 as replacement for the current world 250 championship has moved a step closer with draft technical rules for the new class being drawn up.
The new class will be exclusive for four-strokes four-cylinder machines but with production engines only with limited rpm.
Chassis design and construction will be prototype under proposals currently the subject of heated debate inside the Motorcycle Sport Manufacturers Association.
The proposals have enraged European factories like Aprilia and KTM, who form the bulk of the 250 and 125 grids.
Bosses of both factories believe there is an agreement in place with Dorna for the 250 two-stroke F-class to run until the end of the 2011 season.
But Dorna and Honda is pushing for the new rules to be implemented for 2010, with HRC recently confirming it would cease all two-stroke production at the end of the 2009 campaign.
KTM designer Harald Bartol is a long-standing two-stroke engineer and tuner, and views the proposed four-stroke future with trepidation.
"Technically I have no problem with it. I will build a four-stroke. I don't care. But I have a problem whether it is good for racing," he said.
"The costs will explode. As now, 125 and 250 for growing up in racing and coming to MotoGP is the best situation. As we know, it is coming from only one company.
ÔÇ£They are pushing from the other side. Last year they said 2012. Then it was too quiet for a long time but it was coming through the back door, to Dorna," said Harald Bartol.
"If we go to 600 this is bad for racing. I am not sticking to two-strokes, but it should be a proper race bike. Not donkey racing, with a 600.
ÔÇ£This is a big lump of iron. Six-hundreds are racing already, so why do the same thing?
ÔÇ£And as for making funny rules about making a special chassis for a production engine, every handicap formula in the past was always bad. If you have too many rules, it spoils it," he said.
Key points of the draft technical rules are; ENGINE Four-stroke engines only Maximum capacity 600cc, Maximum four cylinders, No oval pistons RPM limited, No pneumatic valve operation systems, or variable timing.
INLET AND FUEL SYSTEM
Throttle body diameter limited
Fuel injector type limited
Fuel spec ÔÇô standard unleaded fuel
GEARBOX
Six speed gearbox
Limited alternate gear ratios available
ELECTRONICS
RPM limiter on each bike
CHASSIS
Design and construction of the chassis is free
WEIGHT
One and two cylinders (TBA)
Three cylinders (TBA)
Four cylinders (155kg)
Other points:
No carbon brakes
No carbon composite wheels
Teams can only scrutineer one motorcycle per rider Limited number of complete engines per rider at each event
- stevegula - 09-12-2007
rule changes just fuck smaller teams, especially engine related ones *cough*TeamKR*cough*
- .RJ - 09-12-2007
stevegula Wrote:rule changes just fuck smaller teams, especially engine related ones *cough*TeamKR*cough*
I'm not sure what you're getting at here - The engine issues KR has are with Honda's inability to supply all their teams with top equipment, not rules changes. These rules changes are also 3-5 years away - it is good they're getting the ruleset sorted out now, to give teams/manufacturers plenty of time to ramp up and test. Very few teams in the support classes have the equipment/engines/suspension/rider that can win races.
- stevegula - 09-12-2007
rule changes mean increased costs. for some teams that means barely making it.
And TeamKR's problem going into the year wasn't Honda's supply issue, it was having the money to keep competing because the costs keep going up. And atleast in GP, KR and others don't have the money to change their engines as frequently as Dorna keeps changing it on them.
- .RJ - 09-12-2007
When GP switched to 990cc 4-strokes, they were guaranteed 5 years with the same engine configuration, thats what they got, and KR still signed up to play.
- Ginger - 09-12-2007
Not to mention top-tier racing isn't the place to play the budget card. If you can't play in the field, don't come out.
I'd hardly think a production 600 motor would make life all that hard for feeder classes.
- stevegula - 09-12-2007
asteele2 Wrote:Not to mention top-tier racing isn't the place to play the budget card. If you can't play in the field, don't come out.
That doesn't mean disregard costs and eventually be stuck with only factory teams being able to compete.
Quote:I'd hardly think a production 600 motor would make life all that hard for feeder classes.
But if the current league isn't broke, why "fix" it?
- Ginger - 09-12-2007
If privateers want to win they should go to classes that aren't, by definition, technology showcases.
Why are we talking about the premier class, anyway?
I think some would argue that the current feeder classes are broke. 2 stroke racing is jurassic and some say it's doesn't have the greatest relevance as a feeder class now that the premier is 4 stroke.
I don't really have an opinion either way, though.
- .RJ - 09-12-2007
stevegula Wrote:But if the current league isn't broke, why "fix" it?
Because 125/250 GP is the ONLY place 2-strokes are still being raced at a professional level. There has been quite a bit of 4-stroke development over the past 10-15 years in road and dirt racing - its time to move on. 2-strokes are old and busted in pro racing - I dont agree with it, but thats the way it has moved on.
- G.Irish - 09-12-2007
stevegula Wrote:rule changes mean increased costs. for some teams that means barely making it.I agree that the change in displacement definitely hurt KR. For a small shop like theirs it absolutely hurt them that they had to develop a new chassis for the new engine rule and had the additional challenge of how to get the tires to work with said chassis.
And TeamKR's problem going into the year wasn't Honda's supply issue, it was having the money to keep competing because the costs keep going up. And atleast in GP, KR and others don't have the money to change their engines as frequently as Dorna keeps changing it on them.
Sure, the sport is not for those that are light of pocket but if you make the financial picture too ugly you're not going to have much of a championship to speak of.
For my money I don't particularly care what Aprilia and KTM are howling on about. They are the only two factories in town and Aprilia is easily dominating the class. Their sob story about the 'little guy' is a joke. They are not the little guy, they are the BIG guys in the class.
I can see why the idea for production 600's has come about though. After all, if they're production 600's it will be pretty darned easy for teams to secure engines and there'll be a wealth of knowledge around each engine. I think it would also prevent a renewed arms race between the Japanese in the support classes if the engines have to be production-based.
The problem I see is that GP is not supposed to be production-based. That will present an artificial barrier to entry that none but the big 4 can climb since no one but the big 4 makes production 600's. Furthermore there is already 600-based racing. Why should anyone watch GP600's?
If anything, I say make them race 400 or 450 cc singles or twins. That way the Japanese couldn't get away with tossing in miniature version of their current street 600's and they could keep 250 cc 2 strokes in there. The only problem with this is that it will clearly lead to exploding costs if the Japanese come back en masse to do battle.
I actually asked KRSR and the illustrious panel of American GP champions about what engine formula he thought the support classes (125/250) should switch to. He said, "Well, they never listen to me anyway but I think they should be spec classes."
Now on the surface of it everyone would probably disagree and would be really pissed about such a suggestion but when I think about it more I think it makes sense. 250 and 125 are support classes where the ultimate goal is to move up to Moto GP. The classes right now have zero relevance to the street and really its a one horse race for the most part in both classes so you can't even say that there's competition.
So why not just make them spec classes and be done with it. That way you don't end up with the situation we have now where there are plenty of talented riders who just don't have a chance of winning because they are not on top flight machinery. The racing would certainly be better too.
If the Japanese returned to the support classes and started a war there it really wouldn't benefit anybody and would raise costs. Furthermore, you wouldn't want budgets that would have gone to Moto GP to start getting spent in the support classes. The worst case scenario would be if you ended up with what we had in the AMA a few years ago. Manufacturers spread out across the classes so that each could cherry pick championships from privateers (I'm looking at you Kawasaki and Yamaha).
If only they would listen to Kenny...