The following warnings occurred: | |||||||||||||||
Warning [2] Undefined property: MyLanguage::$archive_pages - Line: 2 - File: printthread.php(287) : eval()'d code PHP 8.2.22 (Linux)
|
Smooth Braking and Turning - Printable Version +- Madison Motorsports (https://forum.mmsports.org) +-- Forum: Technical (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=4) +--- Forum: Driving Techniques (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=13) +--- Thread: Smooth Braking and Turning (/showthread.php?tid=4028) Pages:
1
2
|
Smooth Braking and Turning - Andy - 04-11-2006 I'm working on my overall lack of smoothness but I'm having a hard time visualizing smooth braking and turning. I'm reading Ross Bentley's Professional Racing Techniques and he talks about squeezing the brakes smoothly. I treat my brake pedal like an on/off switch, I brake late and jam on the brakes and quickly get off them. Now, I recognize that the quick lift off the brake upsets the car, followed by my jerk of the wheel into the turn leaves much to be desired. What are some exercises that I can work on to help me be smoother. - white_2kgt - 04-11-2006 Has UNK gone over the string to pedals/steering wheel exercise in class yet? If not ask him to, it is easy in person to explain but hard in type. It will come into discussion with traction, but applies to being smooth as well, at least on brake release, that will take care of the 'off'. I broke myself of the jam on brake habit (the ON) by 'pumping up' the brakes before any hard braking zone. Basically, just before your braking zone starts pump the pedal a few times then on the last pump apply even constant pressure, just like you do when beeding in your new pads (pumping is a good check of your braking system as well). Then on turn in as you start to turn slowly let off the pedal. Are you smooth with the steering wheel yet? B/c if not pedal control is going to be even harder. Work on one thing at a time. So assuming your steering is smooth this will work, otherwise, work on smooth turn in and turn out. Then work on the braking, then gas. Getting into the gas early and hard should be the last thing you work on. Once you get this down, THEN work on compressing your braking zones. So if you are doing that now, stop, get the smooth down, then working on doing it all quicker/faster. Stop heel toe as well, just work on smooth steering, then smooth braking, then gas. You can work on heel/toe / smooth gas at the same time since they happen at different times. - Dave - 04-11-2006 I'll have a hard time putting it into words, but I'll try. I don't like to really stab my brakes. A kinda hit me brake pedal real lightly, and as I feel the car starting to slow down, just push down harder. Now, that may sound like premature braking, and it probably is, but it kept me smooth. The more I did it, the more I "felt" the brakes and the better feel I got from them. Just get out of the "on/off" switch mindset, and just tell yourself to brake slowly and firmly. Practice it around the street as you are coming up on a turn. - Andy - 04-11-2006 Dave Wrote:I'll have a hard time putting it into words, but I'll try. I don't like to really stab my brakes. A kinda hit me brake pedal real lightly, and as I feel the car starting to slow down, just push down harder. Now, that may sound like premature braking, and it probably is, but it kept me smooth. The more I did it, the more I "felt" the brakes and the better feel I got from them. Just get out of the "on/off" switch mindset, and just tell yourself to brake slowly and firmly. Practice it around the street as you are coming up on a turn. I can picture being smooth at the faster turns like T3 at Summit Main or T9. But I'm thinking of T1 after a long straight. How can brake "slowly" and heel toe and turn smoothly without plowing the concret wall and ending up on the skid pad. I can be smooth on the street but at speed, the same rules can't possibly apply can it? - ScottyB - 04-11-2006 this sounds really lame, but when i was practicing more actively at smoothness i would hang a key chain (you could use anything with weight) on a long string from my rear-view mirror. i would always try to make the weight hang, without swinging wildly, in one direction or the other. same principle for smooth shifting, up and down. i've also noticed that my brake pedal smash-tactics differ greatly based on seating position. i'm way more controlled when i'm positioned so that i contact the pedal towards the last 50% of the arc of my foot motion, if my heel is planted on the floorboard and i'm using the ball of my foot to contact the pedal. - WRXRacer111 - 04-12-2006 Put it this way... the amount of braking force you can put into a tire varies dependent on the vertical tire loading (ie weight) until the tire reaches its maximum terminal braking force. That's a gross simplification, but it works. What does that mean? Say you're driving a car with 50/50 weight distribution at constant speed. So you have no weight transfer, ie static weight distribution is what we work with. Let's say our car weighs 1000 pounds, so you have 500 pounds on the front tires. Welp, you plant the brakes, you've only got 500 pounds pressing down on the tire (normal force) and that's also the only thing that keeps the tire from locking. So the tire locks pretty easily. If we brake lightly and put 60% (600 pounds) of our weight on the front tires, we can brake harder because we have more normal force to resist lockup due to braking force. 70% (700 pounds) on the front tires, we can put in more braking force up until the point we reach maximum tire loading (hypothetical 80% here). So you now have a mathematical relationship between weight distribution and braking force. If you plot braking force against tire loading, you'll see it makes a nice smooth curve. If you want to ride the edge of that curve and brake as hard as you can throughout the braking zone, you will need to brake just like the curve... smooth. Increase braking force as you increase front tire loading. Spiking the brake pedal takes you above the curve, and makes the tire lockup. Instead, ramp your pedal force up smoothly and it will work better. Efficient brakers brake quickly, but ramp their brake pedal force. If you plotted brake pedal force against time, you'd see there's a nice smooth curve there as well, assuming there's not some reason they're trying to upset the car. BTW, the first time you come off the brake rapidly after totally using the brakes into a turn... you probably won't want to do it again for a little while. Heh - Eclipsor - 09-20-2006 white_2kgt Wrote:I broke myself of the jam on brake habit (the ON) by 'pumping up' the brakes before any hard braking zone.You don't want to break yourself of that habit! Going from the throttle to initial brake in a straight line is pretty much the only time it's advantageous NOT to be smooth. Even Randy Pobst agrees! - BLINGMW - 09-20-2006 good little article there, I hadn't thought of left foot braking straight line just to max accel, but it sure makes sense. I might have to try that next time just to learn. I admit, I ease into the brakes a bit more than needed, and have to brake a bit earlier because of it, but that's a confidence and "need to drive the car home", school thing. The faster you get the weight forward, the more you can brake, and the later you have to do it. - Evan - 09-21-2006 Eclipsor Wrote:interesting article, but physics disagrees with Randy.white_2kgt Wrote:I broke myself of the jam on brake habit (the ON) by 'pumping up' the brakes before any hard braking zone.You don't want to break yourself of that habit! Going from the throttle to initial brake in a straight line is pretty much the only time it's advantageous NOT to be smooth. I can see the concept being true on a lightweight downforce car, where you have the most grip when you are travelling the fastest, but in a production car with no downforce (lots of lift actually) and a high cG with lots of weight transfer and you have the least amount of grip at high speed just before you press the whoa pedal. You have to ease into the brakes to let the weight transfer to the nose, load the tires and give you more grip. You are still using all the grip available to you as Randy says, but adapting your brakes for the change in grip levels that weight transfer provides. Ive locked up brakes by going too hard too fast plenty of times. - BLINGMW - 09-21-2006 Evan Wrote:adapting your brakes for the change in grip levels that weight transfer provides. Well it's obviously a car limitation thing, so the way you're saying it is correct. You want to hit them as hard and as fast as the car can stand. The softer the car, the slower the weight transfer, but if someone's consiously easing into the brakes, they might be underestimating how fast the weight could transfer if they did it faster/harder. Physics don't disagree with him though. I think his point is that for any car, if you have to be X smooth in steering and throttle, you should be X/2 smooth on initial braking. - Evan - 09-21-2006 well he is saying that you shouldnt be smooth on the brakes, which is not the case if you are using your weight transfer. hitting them hard like he says is not waiting for the car to weight the front. Doing so creates a natural progressively smooth application of brakes. We arent talking a long time here, probably 1/2 of a second, but its still a noticable difference between the slamming brake pedal that he describes. this wouldnt be too hard to demonstrate with an accelerometer DAQ - D_Eclipse9916 - 09-21-2006 Notice the word's ramp up in braking, and how he talks about locking up. Yes on a car with shit loads of downforce you can do that. For Example: On my car with my pirellis on I would slam on the brakes and the rear end would become wayyyyyy too light (production cars dont generate much downforce). and actually would lock up the rears, because it was so light (and I have a lot of weight transfer to the front). This would cajuse the back end to scoot out either way which is incredibly dangerous. This "theory" is a good one, provided the car is a professional car with shit loads of downforce and huge slicks front and rear, however it is dangerous to follow the advice of how a guy drive's his car with shit loads more power, brakes, grip, downforce, where he cn pull a LOT of shit that we can't even imagine doing in our vehicles. - Andy - 09-21-2006 Good discussion, guys. I'm struggling with this squeezing on the brakes thing. I can't get the right balance between getting on them smoothly yet quickly and calculating the proper distance. I either scrub too much speed off or come in too hot. It seems like in my car at least, if I get on the brakes hard immediately as late as possible in the shortest time possible, I get through turns faster and seemingly more control. Some of the younger instructors are okay with it while some of the older guys are telling me it's a no-no. What steps did you guys use to improve your braking? - Eclipsor - 09-21-2006 Yes, the technique Randy described is best for a car with high downforce and a stiff suspension setup. I'm hoping that's what we all aspire to drive on the track. Even production cars can be setup like racecars. Isn't that the goal? - BLINGMW - 09-21-2006 D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:provided the car is a professional car that may be true, but he clearly applies his technique even in WC. Those cars do NOT have much downforce, and run street legal tires. Sure, they're stiff, and set up correctly, but this isn't like a formula-car-only idea here. - Eclipsor - 09-21-2006 Andy Wrote:What steps did you guys use to improve your braking?Trail braking is a very useful skill to learn. Learning to smoothly release the brake pedal is also critical. Here's an article describing dynamic brake release. Quote:GRANT RILEY - .RJ - 09-21-2006 Eclipsor Wrote:Trail braking is a very useful skill to learn. Its a useful skill to have in your toolbox, but its not essential - and the better your car setup is, the less you have to do it, IMHO, unless you are limited by the rules to things like stock springs/swaybars. - Eclipsor - 09-21-2006 .RJ Wrote:Its a useful skill to have in your toolbox, but its not essential - and the better your car setup is, the less you have to do it, IMHO, unless you are limited by the rules to things like stock springs/swaybars.Thank you for agreeing with me. Now, why do you feel that you have to trail brake less the better your car is setup? From my experiences, I've found that a lot of people seem to think the main reason for trail braking is to brake deeper into the corner. In reality, trail braking is mostly used to rotate the car towards the apex. Whether or not trail braking should be used is most often determined by the corner, not the setup of the car. - .RJ - 09-21-2006 Eclipsor Wrote:Now, why do you feel that you have to trail brake less the better your car is setup? Because if I trail brake with 1000+ lb rear springs the car spins - Eclipsor - 09-21-2006 .RJ Wrote:Because if I trail brake with 1000+ lb rear springs the car spinsHeh, yeah... like I said up there... rotation is the goal. Just be a bit more smooth. Quote:Trail braking helps you rotate the car into a corner by controlling the transfer of weight onto the front tires, giving them more stick, and thus compensating for any understeering tendency the car would otherwise have. |