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I knew some of you would get a kick out of this... - BLINGMW - 10-14-2005
This is a letter and response in the July Roundel "Tech Talk" section. I have retyped it for you because I could not find it available on the net. Any spelling or grammar mistakes can be assumed to be my own. Enjoy:
I have--well, had--a 1996 M3 that I retired to winter duty and track duty when I baught my 2002 M3. Despite the normal spate of E36 problems (water pumps, radiators, thermostats, bushings, ball joints, door panels, etc., etc., ), the E36 was a pretty good car and it drove quite well when everything was up to snuff--quite well until 132,000 miles, when the rear suspension fell out of the chassis due to structural failure of the rear floor. Cost of repair greatly exceeded the value of the car, so I stripped it for parts and junked the chassis. A BMW reduced to junk after 132,000 miles: That's a first for me. My E30 M3 literally ran hundreds of driving schools with no structural failures.
I don't want to use my E46 on track; it's just too expensive. I ran it once at Mid-Ohio and boiled the brake fluid even with the brake-cooling ducts unblocked. I think the car is too heavy for track work out of the box, and I'm worried about the same failure I experienced on my E36. But this leaves me with no track car.
I was hoping for your recommendation on which new BMW I should choose for winter and track duty. I am leaning toward the 325Ci, which I'll fit with steel wheels and snow tires for winter. What do you think?
Well, this certianly calls for an opinion and reasonable opinions will vary. In my opinion, the best new BMW to buy for driving events at the race track would be a Honda Accord LX coupe with a five-speed manual gearbox. You'll save at least $14,000 over the cost of a 325Ci, and wind up with a lighter, simpler, more durable car with a stronger chassis than any BMW has produced since the E30 3 series except the 8 series and the Z8. You can tune a Honda well beyond design parameters and the chassis will not break apart like an E36 or E46 BMW. The engine and drivetrain will easily run 200,000 miles without a hiccup if you change driveline fluids with any regularity and use good products. The downside is the godforsaken front-wheel drive, but you'll get used to it.
Moreover, the Fast and Furious kids have all sorts of go-fast parts for Hondas that are relatively inexpensive compared to aftermarket BMW performance parts.
If you want to buy new and stay in the family, buy a Mini. It's not a Honda, but it's also not $33,000.
BMW wants to build luxury cars, Bob. Guess what? They do. Can you make a new BMW into a race car? Sure, and a fine one at that. But it is increasingly becoming apparent that street/track work is no longer BMWs forte. Contemporary BMWs are just too heavy, too complex, and simply not strong enough structurally to handle the stress. We hear of E36 cars with the rear floor broken apart around the suspension mounts on an almost-weekly basis. Now reports are coming in on E46 cars with the same structural deficiency.
If you want to run a BMW on the street and track, I recommend an E30 3 series or an E28 5 series. They're simple, inexpensive, relatively light weight, and built like Tiger tanks.
- ScottyB - 10-14-2005
haha, thats hilarious. i guess i should have kept my accord
- white_2kgt - 10-14-2005
that's all true, if you want to run at the back of the line, a fast car will cost money and time
- Mike - 10-15-2005
wow... awesome. never heard of the rear floor failure on e36s... that is crazy!
- KPWSerpiente - 10-15-2005
No suprise.
-T
- Myuki - 10-15-2005
that guy Wrote:the best new BMW to buy for driving events at the race track would be a Honda Accord LX coupe
i thought this line was funny. i know what he meant though.
I've never heard of this happeneing. but i don't know that many bmw owners.
- Hunter - 10-16-2005
That guy is a dumb ass.
One of the most common problems with the e36 is the failure of the rear shock mounts, mine went at around 100k. When they start to go, you would here what sounds like a knocking sound from the rear fender. Almost all e36 owners encounter this problem, but rarely to people just ignore it till it tears through the chassis.
It's not like they just punch through the floor instantly. He probably drove around hearing that sound for 5k+ miles. The parts that WILL fail at around 100k miles are the stupid plastic impeller in the water pump, the thermostat, and the rear shock mounts. It's just something you have to see coming with the e36, hell the fix is only around $60.
Re: I knew some of you would get a kick out of this... - Nick325is - 10-16-2005
BLINGMW Wrote:You'll save at least $14,000 over the cost of a 325Ci, and wind up with a lighter, simpler, more durable car with a stronger chassis than any BMW has produced since the E30 3 series except the 8 series and the Z8.
[/i]
The answer is e30 for all of your problems
Nick
Re: I knew some of you would get a kick out of this... - Chris - 10-17-2005
Nick325is Wrote:BLINGMW Wrote:You'll save at least $14,000 over the cost of a 325Ci, and wind up with a lighter, simpler, more durable car with a stronger chassis than any BMW has produced since the E30 3 series except the 8 series and the Z8.
[/i]
The answer is e30 for all of your problems
Nick
yeah man, its funny how my taste for the E30's and miatas have changed so much from my original plans at tracking a honda.
- navin - 10-17-2005
lol..
Andy was telling John this right before we went out for our last session on Sunday..
- Beej - 10-17-2005
Hunter Wrote:That guy is a dumb ass.I ain't an e36 expert, but he's talking about another issue. I thought it was earlier e36's, but wasn't there a problem where the rear subframe actually fell OFF of the car? Yeah, it has the same rear shock mount problems as all 3 series do (which is the $60 fix you're talking about, and they last quite a long time), but I know for a fact I've heard of the entire rear subframe ripping the bottom of the floor out of e36's.
One of the most common problems with the e36 is the failure of the rear shock mounts, mine went at around 100k. When they start to go, you would here what sounds like a knocking sound from the rear fender. Almost all e36 owners encounter this problem, but rarely to people just ignore it till it tears through the chassis.
It's not like they just punch through the floor instantly. He probably drove around hearing that sound for 5k+ miles. The parts that WILL fail at around 100k miles are the stupid plastic impeller in the water pump, the thermostat, and the rear shock mounts. It's just something you have to see coming with the e36, hell the fix is only around $60.
- BLINGMW - 10-17-2005
yes, he's talking about the rear subframe mounts actually tearing away from the floor. Not cool. And it DOES happen, not often, but honestly, a failure like that should never happen. And as far as I know, there was nothing done about it for later model E36's and it sounds like E46's didn't get a fix either.
I knew you Honda boys would love to see a die hard BMW tech, writing for the most biased BMW mag, recommending a Honda. :lol:
- NaptownE36 - 10-17-2005
[adam sandler a la wedding singer] Again... something you could have brought to my attention YESTERDAY!! [/adam sandler a la wedding singer]
Great, now I'm stuck with a car that's sub par compared to the Accord that's sitting right next to it in my parking lot :oops:
- BLINGMW - 10-17-2005
Hardly! It's still wrong-wheel drive, which in my book makes it nearly worthless for anything from spirited driving to track use to racing.
But I know he's right, if you can get past front wheel drive, Honda's the way to go. But I wouldn't be in any hurry to put solid or stiff mounts in the rear of an E36, just keep good 'ol rubber back there and you'll be fine. :thumbup:
- G.Irish - 10-18-2005
Eh, even as a Honda guy I couldn't recommend a 4-cylinder Accord. Maybe a TSX would be a better recommendation. More power, more sport-oriented.
Even then, I wouldn't buy a new car for track use anyway.
FWD useless? I suppose that's why a TSX took the World Challenge Touring championship and a RSX won the BTCC title this year eh?
- BLINGMW - 10-18-2005
they cheated.
- Mike - 10-18-2005
G.Irish Wrote:FWD useless? I suppose that's why a TSX took the World Challenge Touring championship and a RSX won the BTCC title this year eh?
yay for restrictions! x car in fwd against x car in rwd, rwd will win.
- G.Irish - 10-18-2005
Mike Wrote:G.Irish Wrote:FWD useless? I suppose that's why a TSX took the World Challenge Touring championship and a RSX won the BTCC title this year eh?
yay for restrictions! x car in fwd against x car in rwd, rwd will win.
All things being equal yes. So if there was a fwd 325 and a rwd 325 and they both weighed the same, then the rwd 325 would win (in the dry).
But all things are not equal. There are lot of other components of performance a given fwd racecar could excel at which could give it an advantage over a rwd car in a race. Weight, power, suspension design, chassis rigidity, and aerodynamics are all factors that can help a fwd car overcome its inherent deficit against a rwd car. However, when you start raising the power level it starts becoming exponentially more difficult to overcome that disadvantage. This is why you don't see any purpose built fwd racecars (i.e. prototypes, formula cars). I'd say right around 300 hp is where the difficulty raises significantly.
.
- BLINGMW - 11-01-2005
BTW, here's some good pics of a guy trying to fix a subframe failure, looks like lots of fun....
http://kbdlock.ath.cx/~atmh/Other%20Car%20Pages/e36subframe.html
- Evan - 11-01-2005
G.Irish Wrote:There are lot of other components of performance a given fwd racecar could excel at which could give it an advantage over a rwd car in a race. Weight, power, suspension design, chassis rigidity, and aerodynamics are all factors that can help a fwd car overcome its inherent deficit against a rwd car.im curious to hear you explain those.
The advantages I see for FWD is, weight, efficiency, and thrust vector.
Personally, I dont think those advantages even come close to outweighing the disadvantages of a fwd platform, including weight distribution, overworked front tires, weight transfer away from powered wheels.
Aero, suspension design, power, and chassis rigidity I really dont see how a fwd platform is inherently better, but Id be interested in what you have to say about that.