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+--- Thread: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? (/showthread.php?tid=11631)
Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - D_Eclipse9916 - 02-26-2018
Brandon and Rj's talk about tunes and mods and the complication of aftermarket integration into newer vehicles got me thinking.
New cars are SUCH a pain to modify in traditional ways and have become more expensive to do simple "tuning" and upgrading stuff such as the exhaust and suspension (Electronic deletes). During the early 2000s and even the early 2010s, the cars became heavier, more numb, and more expensive. So screw newer cars right?
WAIT!
The past 5 years or so have been absolutely amazing to car enthusiasts. Cars have gotten louder to the point of Ford even introducing a "good neighbor tune" to quiet the exhaust on start up during start up at certain hours. No need to upgrade that exhaust! The suspensions have gotten stiffer AND more comfortable. They finally come from the factory with enough adjustability to add camber or have good enough suspensions to not need a ton to do avoid destroying tires in aggressive driving. They also have gotten LIGHTER (some not all) and got steering feel back into them vs previous iterations in the early 2000s. Huge wheel widths to support good tire and enough power stock that "why add more?"
For example, I would gladly trade up my E92 M3 for any of the above and damn near would change VERY little, heck the stock wheels themselves are gorgeous!
BMW: M2
Chevy: Corvette Grand Sport and Camaro Z28/1LE
Ford: Mustang GT350
Porsche: Cayman GT4/Porsche Boxster GTS/991S
And some that I wouldn't necessarily buy myself but are superb vehicles and I would consider pretty big upgrades from previous gens.
Audi: RS3 and RS5 models
Mazda Miata: Went down in weight by a significant margin on an already light car!
VW: Latest GTI
Am I just getting old or this truly just a "bright spot" like the early-mid 90s were for auto enthusiasts?
Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - *insertusernamehere* - 02-26-2018
Nope. I agree with you. I was thinking about it myself with Gerald's type R. There's very little I'd want to do that car. If I bought a 90s-2000's all my efforts would be trying to make it everything that the type r is. Manufacturers are giving it to us the way we want today. Even for something as basic as a headunit. No need to upgrade, it comes with all the connectivity you could need. Something like a Miata is still open to mods like suspension and so on but overall the package coming from factory is much better than the past.
Then again, I suppose it depends a little on the trim level car you're buying. I guess top trim has everything you'd want.
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - JPolen01 - 02-26-2018
(02-26-2018, 01:27 PM)*insertusernamehere* Wrote: Then again, I suppose it depends a little on the trim level car you're buying. I guess top trim has everything you'd want.
Not necessarily true anymore. Look at Honda as an example. One step above base and you get Apple Car Play/Android Auto STANDARD. Heated cloth seats, STANDARD. My brother has a mid range civic and it has all those and remote start. You are getting more and more equipment in cars these days.
But don't mistake this for getting more for the less money or even the same. Average new car pricing is on the rise year over year. Up 3.3% from Jan 2016 to Jan 2017.
https://mediaroom.kbb.com/2017-02-01-New-Car-Transaction-Prices-Remain-High-Up-More-Than-3-Percent-Year-Over-Year-In-January-2017-According-To-Kelley-Blue-Book
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - GTBrandon - 02-26-2018
I would say it's more of a half and half for better and for worse. In one way, it's crazy that we have so many electronic parameters on cars that a simple tune can add 100hp, we can change our suspension with the click of a button, and do it all with a heated steering wheel for the winter.
But all of this comes at a price, and it brings up a video I shared in the chat a week ago. It means that the DIY'er is being pushed out by IT restrictions that can't be overcome with a standard toolbox. You need a coder just to change a battery, will be locked out of your car for tinkering with things yourself, and it can all be tracked by a dealership or manufacturer being used against you if anything ever happens (which most would argue is probably fair).
Also, I have only seen the weight of most cars go up in the last 10 years, not the other way around. We had this discussion in the chat a few weeks ago, how modern cars have so much power only because they all weigh so much that it's almost necessary. Nowadays people are disappointed in a newer car with less than 300hp because all their cars weigh 3500+lbs.
I'm happy for all the new technologies and advancements in the cars we have today, I think it's great that consumers can have these things at their fingertips for now an extremely cheap price. (This brings up debate on whether the luxury Lexus/Acura's are worth it anymore with base model Toyotas and Hondas having the same tech that only used to be seen in higher end vehicles). But there's also a reason why more and more enthusiasts are looking for older cars when it comes to performance and fun to drive weekend cars as opposed to newer cars of the same brand/class.
Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - Jake - 02-26-2018
I agree as well. I think the mid-late 00s was a dull spot for car development. There were some standouts, but quite a few duds.
I think this is a great time to be an enthusiast looking at newish cars, and the next handful of years will see them enter the used market as well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - G.Irish - 02-26-2018
I think we are at a sort of automotive peak. Because in the next decade or so the shift to electric (and/or fuel cell) cars is gonna really get into swing, and manufacturers will start to decide sporty cars don't justify the investment. Already Honda decided not to greenlight a new gasoline-powered S car because China announced that they're going to ban petrol cars sometime in the next couple of decades. UK and France have already set dates.
I think for the time being there's a lot out there for enthusiasts because several manufacturers have figured out how to consistently make money with sporty trim levels of mass market cars, rather than dedicated sports cars. Kind of the 911 approach. You can get a Mustang with a 4 cylinder and soon, 3 different V8's. You can get a 228, M240, or M2. Civic Sport, Civic Si, Civic Type-R. Challenger/Charger V6 to Hellcats. So many of these cars are well-engineered, easy to live with, full of standard convenience features, and fun-to-drive.
Only downside is how stupidly hard it is to get some models at MSRP.
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - ScottyB - 02-26-2018
yeah things have been great recently. even if you're at the bottom of a new car budget you can still buy a BRZ, ND miata or a Fiesta ST and have a great thrifty performance car.
i think the future of car modding through is going to be ECU tuning literacy. everything is so tied into the ECU that its becoming impossible to make drastic changes without knowing how to modify code so that the safety, stability control, and emissions systems don't go apeshit. to RJ's point, the German cars seem to really be sensitive to that, and the fixes aren't cheap.
if you've got the bucks to spend, the factory sports cars out there today are bonkers. in 10-12 years the used market it going to be amazing.
Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - *insertusernamehere* - 02-26-2018
So is this when I pull off my fantasy 1bedroom with an attrached 10 car garage and buy all my favorites and hold on to them forever? Lol
Although I'm really hoping manufacturers decide to make some sporty electric/hybrids because there's a TON of potential in that department. Yeah yeah its not combustion and doesn't make noise, I said it too, but fuel is a waste and after doing electric karting I'm sold on performance electric/hybrid cars. So long as gas cars aren't outlawed I think there will be PLENTY of stuff in the used market for full gasoline entertainment.
Sent from my FRD-L04 using Tapatalk
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - GTBrandon - 02-26-2018
Will manufacturers continue to make one-off gasoline cars even once the full switch to electric has occurred, and just sell them as track-only/not road legal? I know performance can't be compared to electric drivetrains, but the fight for power and pure vibrations/sounds emmitted from an ICE engine also can't be re-created in a natural way. I think that's what the real enthusiasts will be itching for in 20 years time.
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - D_Eclipse9916 - 02-26-2018
(02-26-2018, 01:38 PM)GTBrandon Wrote: I would say it's more of a half and half for better and for worse. In one way, it's crazy that we have so many electronic parameters on cars that a simple tune can add 100hp, we can change our suspension with the click of a button, and do it all with a heated steering wheel for the winter.
But all of this comes at a price, and it brings up a video I shared in the chat a week ago. It means that the DIY'er is being pushed out by IT restrictions that can't be overcome with a standard toolbox. You need a coder just to change a battery, will be locked out of your car for tinkering with things yourself, and it can all be tracked by a dealership or manufacturer being used against you if anything ever happens (which most would argue is probably fair).
Also, I have only seen the weight of most cars go up in the last 10 years, not the other way around. We had this discussion in the chat a few weeks ago, how modern cars have so much power only because they all weigh so much that it's almost necessary. Nowadays people are disappointed in a newer car with less than 300hp because all their cars weigh 3500+lbs.
I'm happy for all the new technologies and advancements in the cars we have today, I think it's great that consumers can have these things at their fingertips for now an extremely cheap price. (This brings up debate on whether the luxury Lexus/Acura's are worth it anymore with base model Toyotas and Hondas having the same tech that only used to be seen in higher end vehicles). But there's also a reason why more and more enthusiasts are looking for older cars when it comes to performance and fun to drive weekend cars as opposed to newer cars of the same brand/class.
Hrmm, maybe I am looking at particular brands and models that enthusiasts gravitate towards (think miata vs 328i). The camaro went from soft and undertired to massive tires and a world-class suspension. The miata lost weight and gained suspension, the boxster went from a hairdresser's car to serious performer.
All the "good" enthusiasts models from the early 2000s are crazy expensive to justify. Mitsubishi Evos with 100k selling for within $5k of new? 2004+ S2000s holding near 20s, BMW M3s are decent but what they lack in initial purchase is heavy maintenance. The good "Subarus" suffer the same fate.
Maybe it's just coming at a time where I can finally afford a fairly new"ish" car and less interested in working on street cars; but its coming at a phenomenal time. I can see in 3 years buying one of the above in the list and being happy mostly stock. Heck the E92 M3 is back on stock suspension with a front sway bar and a cat-back exhaust and its fantastic for dual role, and it's not nearly as good as the new stuff out.
(02-26-2018, 01:56 PM)GTBrandon Wrote: Will manufacturers continue to make one-off gasoline cars even once the full switch to electric has occurred, and just sell them as track-only/not road legal? I know performance can't be compared to electric drivetrains, but the fight for power and pure vibrations/sounds emmitted from an ICE engine also can't be re-created in a natural way. I think that's what the real enthusiasts will be itching for in 20 years time.
To tie into this statement, the availability of "manufacturer race cars" are more available than ever.
Really for the "above average income" racer there was the 911 GT3 and Ferrari, a spattering of one or two years where you could buy a body in white car, but no real "take me to the track" like the GT3. Yeah there were the ALMS/manufacturer built crazy cars/unobtanium. But nothing that was really "here is a check Audi, give me a race car for my own use in XX series". Most race car fields were filled by street cars turned race cars.
What's available now? (Notice a common theme of GT4). While not a Spec Miata, these are all mostly sub-exotic car pricing for a fully built race car from the factory.
Audi RS3 LMS in PWC/TC trim
Audi R8 LMS
Audi R8 GT4
BMW M4 GT4
Ford Mustang GT4
Jaguar F-Type GT4
Chevrolet Camaro GT4
Mazda Cup Car
Mercedes AMG GTS LMS and GT4 editions
Volkswagen GTI TCR
Porsche Cayman GT4
Mclaren GT4
And they are selling like HOTCAKES. Porsche and Mercedes have both underestimated demand and are gearing up for more. Audi/VW group is creating more and more "editions" for race series.
In talking with a bunch of race support teams, they are both welcoming this from an "easier to support and work on" aspect; but will also lose revenue of building the cars themselves. Definitely an interesting time.
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - Senor_Taylor - 02-26-2018
I agree. The fact that I could cross shop the GTI between the Si, the Fost/Fist, and WRX (Not to mention there is still a level above with the R, Type R, RS, and STI) really blew my mind. Throw in the Mini, GT86/BRZ, ND Miata, and we've got a plethora of inexpensive cars that blow the doors off everything but the best 2000's cars.
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - BLINGMW - 02-27-2018
The existence of the ND Miata and BRZ make me very happy, and family cars and vans come with engines that would keep up with an E46 M3's S54, so yeah, I'm glad to see this last push for the ICE!
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - .RJ - 02-27-2018
(02-26-2018, 01:23 PM)D_Eclipse9916 Wrote: Brandon and Rj's talk about tunes and mods and the complication of aftermarket integration into newer vehicles got me thinking.
New cars are SUCH a pain to modify in traditional ways and have become more expensive to do simple "tuning" and upgrading stuff such as the exhaust and suspension (Electronic deletes).
Its not just the mods. Even basic maintenance to keep the thing on the road is a fucking headache.
DIY oil change? Good luck removing the 3 piece undertray thats held on by 37 fasteners.
Battery replacement? Gotta code/reset/recalibrate stuff, 1-2 hours dealer time. And some of them require bullshit like seat removal to get at the $250 battery.
Why is the oil filter housing gasket on my 135 leaking, because the gasket disintegrates at 55k miles? Seriously? And then its 5 hour labor (book rate) to R&R. $700 bill.
Run flat tires ride like absolute shit, because no one gives you a spare anymore.
Change your own fluids? Hope you have special tools and dealer diagnostics to cycle ABS, bleed coolant, etc.
All the electronics are hopelessly integrated. For the guys that want to update to the later model E90 tail lights, they have to be coded to the car's ECU. Yes. Tail lights.
And, with all of this cars are still disposable. Steel still rusts, plastics fade and yellow and crack, fabrics tear, get bent, rubber gets dry and fragile. Unless you live in California or have a climate controlled garage, cars have about a 20-25 year lifespan before the accumulation of worn out shit turns into a restoration project or a trip to the crusher. See: Joey's never ending story of an E36.
But, absolute performance is crazy. The 135 is faster than most cars were 10 years ago, while being quiet, comfortable, easy to drive, lower emissions and better fuel economy.
Sorry, I'm just soured on newer cars and to a lesser extent cars in general right now. I spoiled myself with 5 years of trouble free Ridegline ownership and then dove off into the deep end of an A4, 135 and 328 which have been far more expensive, time consuming and full of hassle to own than anything I ever owned before the truck. I enjoy driving them, but fuck me. I really like the new accord and GTI, but, I dont expect they are any better to own after the warranty runs out.
I'm done ranting now. I'll be out back getting my 40 year old motorcycle running for spring.
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - Apoc - 02-27-2018
Cars follow the economy. The 2000s sucked because so did the economy. Now that the economy is gangbusters, so are the cars. Combine that with many of us arriving at a financial place where we can buy cars that are less than five years old and you have what feels like cars "peaking." It happens to nearly every generation and will likely happen again... just electric motors next time around.
That said, car modifying as we know it is nearly dead. Welcome to the technological age. I actually have a hard time justifying modifying the F31 or GTI because they're so perfect for us... but I never got a hard on for busting my knuckles, so I'm not bothered by it.
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - ScottyB - 02-27-2018
.RJ Wrote:Sorry, I'm just soured on newer cars and to a lesser extent cars in general right now.
keep in mind you're driving a car built by a brand, and in a price point, that relies hugely on the lease ownership and maintenance model. their cars are largely meant to be disposable appliances, albeit really nice ones. nobody gives a damn about the second owner who gets it 5 years after its new...it just has to get the first owner to the dealer a few years later as happily and conveniently as possible so they'll buy the next shiny thing and keep the machine churning.
re: "lifetime fluids", AMG engines dropping valves, BMWs with tail lights that have to be coded, audis with 8 different chain tensioners, lexus engines that live under a plastic shield and you can't even check the oil, etc etc. that's largely someone else's problem, and by the time those poor SOB's get them and want to maintain them, they aren't the ones filling out the dealer surveys.
but there are still great cars out there for enthusiasts. its just that the "average" car is getting further and further from shadetree mechanic compatibility.
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - CaptainHenreh - 02-27-2018
it's been clear to me for a while that the 'enthusiast' car is going to be ever-more built from a modular kit, and probably electric.
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - Goodspeed - 02-27-2018
Short answer - the way I see it, we're at the peak of:
1. Easily-accessible, ever-higher performance figures requiring comparably less driver skill/involvement. 0-60, 1/4 mile, VIR Lightning Laps and zipping around the 'Ring.
2. Performance value out of the box. See: current bevy of hot hatches, Camaro SS 1LE, Mustang, C7 Corvettes (especially with rebate pricing), etc.
3. Standard-equipped technology to support #1 & #2 as well as passenger safety and comfort.
We're at the nadir of:
1. Driver involvement & a feeling of connectedness to the experience of driving. Layers of tech between you and the road/tactile experience, vehicle weight, and certain facets of vehicle design impeding & dulling the full sensory experience of driving.
2. Being able to maintain & modify your car for the reasons already shared above.
3. Vehicle design and aesthetics. Corporate design cues overriding design appropriate for individual models/classes of vehicles, the relentless effects of safety requirements on design, and general aggressive over-styling across entire model lines.
Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - ViPER1313 - 02-27-2018
I mean, not all new cars are nightmares to work on. My Mustang is still very serviceable. Lots of clearance under the hood, no coding batteries or taillights, drain plug in the transmission for easy oil changes, no leaks or issues in 6 years/ 61k miles.
Really still a German car issue IMO.
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - V1GiLaNtE - 02-27-2018
I see the same in the bike-scape. I catch myself looking at GXSR fork swaps, brake upgrades, etc on the SV. While I know that the bike is there in my life currently to learn and improve, but some of your modern day 600's have some amazing technology that there really isn't much need to rework suspension, ECU, etc. I have to remind myself this as I know whatever bike I get next is already by default going to have a significant improvements in suspension, brakes, power. I think most of the modern bikes today you can slap on a slip-on and it's ready to roll.
There's a lot to be said about some of the cars DJ mentioned above. Shit the new M2 competition looks downright nuts.
RE: Automotive Landscape Best Point is now? - G.Irish - 02-27-2018
(02-27-2018, 04:38 PM)V1GiLaNtE Wrote: I see the same in the bike-scape. I catch myself looking at GXSR fork swaps, brake upgrades, etc on the SV. While I know that the bike is there in my life currently to learn and improve, but some of your modern day 600's have some amazing technology that there really isn't much need to rework suspension, ECU, etc. I have to remind myself this as I know whatever bike I get next is already by default going to have a significant improvements in suspension, brakes, power. I think most of the modern bikes today you can slap on a slip-on and it's ready to roll.
There's a lot to be said about some of the cars DJ mentioned above. Shit the new M2 competition looks downright nuts.
Bike tech is kinda going in a weird direction now. Due to emissions and the bloodbath that happened after the 2008 financial crisis, the 600 class is dying. So while all of those bikes are very, very good, they're not getting developed actively. Smaller supersports may be reborn in the 300-400 cc class. With literbikes all sorts of tech innovation around traction control and ABS is happening, along with power still going up. The electronics on the new literbikes is simply stupendous, to the point that literbikes are pretty easy to ride if your brain can process ludicrous speed properly.