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+--- Thread: Automotive News Discussion (/showthread.php?tid=10527)
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Re: Automotive News Discussion - .RJ - 12-17-2015
All of the fees and such are a pain in the ass, so dont deal with it. ALWAYS negotiate on OTD pricing - they can do whatever shell game they want underneath that number.
I wouldnt CC dealers on emails to each other. Sounds like a dick move.
Re: Automotive News Discussion - Ken - 12-17-2015
.RJ Wrote:All of the fees and such are a pain in the ass, so dont deal with it. ALWAYS negotiate on OTD pricing - they can do whatever shell game they want underneath that number.
I wouldnt CC dealers on emails to each other. Sounds like a dick move.
Why? It's a free market, put your best foot forward.
Done all the time in my industry, no gets butthurt over it.
Re: Automotive News Discussion - JPolen01 - 12-17-2015
Ken Wrote:Why? It's a free market, put your best foot forward.Yeah, don't give out the competition's price but no reason they shouldn't know they are bidding against each other. I prefer when people do this actually.
Done all the time in my industry, no gets butthurt over it.
Re: Automotive News Discussion - .RJ - 12-17-2015
JPolen01 Wrote:Ken Wrote:Why? It's a free market, put your best foot forward.Yeah, don't give out the competition's price but no reason they shouldn't know they are bidding against each other. I prefer when people do this actually.
Done all the time in my industry, no gets butthurt over it.
You can tell them you are cross shopping other dealerships without copying all of the people involved.
Re: Automotive News Discussion - Ken - 12-17-2015
.RJ Wrote:JPolen01 Wrote:Ken Wrote:Why? It's a free market, put your best foot forward.Yeah, don't give out the competition's price but no reason they shouldn't know they are bidding against each other. I prefer when people do this actually.
Done all the time in my industry, no gets butthurt over it.
You can tell them you are cross shopping other dealerships without copying all of the people involved.
Then what's the point of me taking the extra effort to send separate e-mails if you're already confirming that you're looking at other options?
Worst case, people take offense and don't answer (which could happen anyway if you told them.) Best case? They REALLY don't like another dealer on the e-mail and put a ridiculous price just to spite them. I know I won bids at like 2-7% margin just because, "fuck those guys."
I don't know, guess I just don't see much downside if you're already stating that you're cross shopping.
Re: Automotive News Discussion - JPolen01 - 12-17-2015
Alright enough of this banter about negotiating on a car purchase. Pikes Peak International Hill Climb just effectively banned all motorcycles from competing. <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://lanesplitter.jalopnik.com/the-pikes-peak-international-hill-climb-just-banned-spo-1748433774">http://lanesplitter.jalopnik.com/the-pi ... 1748433774</a><!-- m -->
Re: Automotive News Discussion - Gordonovski - 12-17-2015
Quote:I wasn’t being hyperbolic when I said the Pikes Peak race was bananas. A motorcyclist has died each of the last two years during the weekend-long event
Meanwhile, 3 riders died at Isle of Man this year alone. People know the risks and every death is a tragedy, but seems like a dumb move from PP.
Re: Automotive News Discussion - Jake - 12-18-2015
Got to drive a BMW i3 the other night. My friend works for VW/Audi and occasionally gets to take home a "competitor's car" overnight to evaluate against the VW equivalent. In this case, the comparison was between the i3 and the e-Golf. I didn't drive the Golf as he'd already given it back. I had previously driven an i3 but it was some dealership promo that amounted to a few miles in a straight line, with a salesman trying to get me in a lease special as I drove.
It's still heinously ugly to look at. I hate the body shape, I hate the wheel style, I hate the two-spoke steering wheel and ginormous, never-ending dashboard.
Torque is everywhere and it sounds like a hover-car from the Jetsons when you really get on it. It's pretty tossable and has super-skinny (185-width) tires all around. You can "disable" the DSC but it is never entirely off, like some older VWs... it still allowed for enough slip through a fast left-hander at an intersection that I had to dial in a tad of oppo.
The "EEP!" noise it makes when you lock/unlock the car is perhaps the loudest of any car I've heard.
On the whole, it was mildly amusing to drive for the 15 minutes I did, but it didn't interest me at all beyond "if they could make the future less ugly, it would be cool."
I'd rather have a Chevy Volt/Bolt, I think.
Re: Automotive News Discussion - ScottyB - 12-18-2015
ND miata looks to be able to crack 190hp with intake, exhaust, and tune, via BBR in England.
![[Image: r7Tq9rp.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/r7Tq9rp.jpg)
considering what a totally minor group of bolt-ons are uncorking, i can't wait to see what mazdaspeed comes out with for a factory backed "speed" effort. 190hp in that thing has got to be a riot considering they're already faster than you'd expect for 155hp stock.
Re: Automotive News Discussion - rherold9 - 12-18-2015
ScottyB Wrote:ND miata looks to be able to crack 190hp with intake, exhaust, and tune, via BBR in England.Yup, my tuner is seeing consistent things when working with good win racing's ND Miatas. 190 crank and around 160whp. The sad part is a typical 4-1 header actually loses power on the car. The way the header is designed is ridiculously efficient.
considering what a totally minor group of bolt-ons are uncorking, i can't wait to see what mazdaspeed comes out with for a factory backed "speed" effort. 190hp in that thing has got to be a riot considering they're already faster than you'd expect for 155hp stock.
Edit: as we speak my tuner is doing a complete tear down of a 2.0 skyactiv engine and race building it N/A to 220hp.
Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
Re: Automotive News Discussion - JPolen01 - 12-21-2015
2017 Acura NSX official base price announced at $156k. Top of the line model will cost $205,700. Online configurator and order taking will go live on Feb 25 with vin #001 being auctioned at Barrett Jackson for charity.
Quote:2017 Acura NSX U.S. MSRP set at $156,000<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.acura.com/PressReleaseArticle.aspx?category=nsx&year=2015&id=8783-en#~pxvD6rsvd5pOT5">http://www.acura.com/PressReleaseArticl ... 6rsvd5pOT5</a><!-- m -->
First 2017 NSX to be auctioned for charity at Barrett-Jackson in January
Online configurator and customer order taking to begin Feb. 25
Acura today announced additional launch details for the next-generation 2017 Acura NSX supercar, coming to market next spring, including pricing and the order taking process. Acura also revealed plans to auction off the very first serial production NSX, VIN 001, at the Barrett-Jackson collector car auction in Scottsdale, Ariz. the last week of January 2016. All proceeds from the auction sale will go to a pair of children's charities: the Pediatric Brain Tumor Foundation and Camp Southern Ground, the passion project of Grammy Award-winning artist Zac Brown.
Re: Automotive News Discussion - Goodspeed - 12-21-2015
That car is going to fail so hard. Shame, the looks have grown on me a lot - early reviews aren't all that flattering however.
Re: Automotive News Discussion - JPolen01 - 12-21-2015
Goodspeed Wrote:That car is going to fail so hard.I think you're going to be correct. It will probably go the same way as the viper. Decent performance but wrong price. It was supposed to be an R8 competitor, but... :dunno:
Re: Automotive News Discussion - G.Irish - 12-21-2015
Quote:That car is going to fail so hard. Shame, the looks have grown on me a lot - early reviews aren't all that flattering howeverAll of the early reviews complained about the same things really. In the normal driving modes the car is tuned too conservatively, the all-season tires were whack, the engine note wasn't great, and steering feel is too numb in the normal modes. On track and with the Michelin Supersports it seemed like no one was complaining.. I think the only thing that means is that they need to tune the normal 'Sport' driving mode to be a bit more exciting.
JPolen01 Wrote:The R8's official pricing hasn't been released but the V10 Plus is probably going to exceed $200k once optioned out. The base R8 will probably cost about what the base NSX does. The NSX falls between the V10 and V10 Plus in horsepower, but exceeds both in torque.Goodspeed Wrote:That car is going to fail so hard.I think you're going to be correct. It will probably go the same way as the viper. Decent performance but wrong price. It was supposed to be an R8 competitor, but... :dunno:
Honda isn't making a ton of NSX's (supposedly only 800 in year one) so they probably won't have any problem selling every one they make, at least for the first year or two. It lines up with the 911 Turbo and R8 in price and should be as fast or faster in a straight line. It'll be interesting to see how things shake out on a racetrack against those cars. On a track with more slow corners the NSX is going to have an acceleration advantage with the e-motors, on a more flowing track the other cars may be a bit better. Hard to say.
If anything, I think the 570S is the car that will draw customers in the under $200k supercar market. Lighter than everything else in that segment, but definitely at the top of the price range.
Re: Automotive News Discussion - Evan - 12-21-2015
JPolen01 Wrote:2017 Acura NSX official base price announced at $156k. Top of the line model will cost $205,700. Online configurator and order taking will go live on Feb 25 with vin #001 being auctioned at Barrett Jackson for charity.
Quote:2017 Acura NSX U.S. MSRP set at $156,000<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.acura.com/PressReleaseArticle.aspx?category=nsx&year=2015&id=8783-en#~pxvD6rsvd5pOT5">http://www.acura.com/PressReleaseArticl ... 6rsvd5pOT5</a><!-- m -->
First 2017 NSX to be auctioned for charity at Barrett-Jackson in January
Online configurator and customer order taking to begin Feb. 25
Acura today announced additional launch details for the next-generation 2017 Acura NSX supercar, coming to market next spring, including pricing and the order taking process. Acura also revealed plans to auction off the very first serial production NSX, VIN 001, at the Barrett-Jackson collector car auction in Scottsdale, Ariz. the last week of January 2016. All proceeds from the auction sale will go to a pair of children's charities: the Pediatric Brain Tumor Foundation and Camp Southern Ground, the passion project of Grammy Award-winning artist Zac Brown.
Fuck Honda and fuck the NSX. The idiots in Ohio couldnt have fucked it up worse.
The original 1991 NSX was priced a hair under a base 911. ($60k at the time - base 2016 911 is $85k )
Instead of keeping the original spirit of the car by holding the price down with a tuned production engine thereby selling a (relative) asston of them. (like they originally designed the car ) They stick in the shitty cosworth engine and double the price. So its yet another richguy toy in an overcrowded field of richguy toys.
If Im a rich asshole and I have 150k for a 2 seater, Im buying a Mclaren (or a 911 turbo if Im lame and uncreative) not a Honda.
I hope the car fails hard like it deserves to.
And Im not talking out of my ass, had this car been priced like it should have been I was planning on kickstarting an early onset midlife crisis / YOLO and selling my Exige for one.
end rant
Re: Automotive News Discussion - Senor_Taylor - 12-21-2015
I agree with Evan. I don't know if it's the rose tinted glasses or not, but looking back, it seems like affordable, simple, sporty cars are falling by the wayside a bit and every manufacturer is trying to shoot for the stars and forgetting the lower markets. If a really cool, affordable model is offered, it's not in the US.
Unfortunately, it seems to be the US manufacturers who are the only ones making the affordable sports cars, nowadays. (There are a few exceptions, i.e. GTR, FRS, and such)
Re: Automotive News Discussion - .RJ - 12-21-2015
Evan Wrote:And Im not talking out of my ass, had this car been priced like it should have been I was planning on kickstarting an early onset midlife crisis / YOLO and selling my Exige for one.
end rant
I call bullshit, Evan would never buy a Honda :lol:
Re: Automotive News Discussion - G.Irish - 12-21-2015
Evan Wrote:Fuck Honda and fuck the NSX. The idiots in Ohio couldnt have fucked it up worse.Don't blame the guys in Ohio, blame the guys in Japan. The only way the NSX loyalists were able to convince the head honchos to sign off on the project, was to pitch it as a flagship for SH-AWD and a performance hybrid.
Even then, it was the Ohio crew who successfully argued that a naturally-aspirated V6 wouldn't be enough. It added a bit of weight but this was gonna be a really heavy car either way.
Supposedly there may be a RWD only NSX with either just the rear e-motor or no e-motor at all but that would be a few years off if they do it at all.
Quote:Instead of keeping the original spirit of the car by holding the price down with a tuned production engine thereby selling a (relative) asston of them. (like they originally designed the car ) They stick in the shitty cosworth engine and double the price. So its yet another richguy toy in an overcrowded field of richguy toys.I don't think Honda really cares about selling a lot of these cars, as evidenced by the very low production capacity. They sold about 3000 of them back in '91, they probably won't make even a third of that next year.
If Im a rich asshole and I have 150k for a 2 seater, Im buying a Mclaren (or a 911 turbo if Im lame and uncreative) not a Honda.
As much as I'd like the car to be cheaper, Honda is aiming at the 911 Turbo, R8, and 458 in performance while rolling with the performance hybrid concept. Would've been difficult to do at the $100k price point. I think it would've been more interesting to see Honda focus on keeping the car simple and lightweight to achieve its performance rather than making a heavy and complex science experiment, but again corporate Honda is on some other shit.
To be fair, if you want a somwehat simple and light 'supercar' there's the GT3, GT3RS and 570S. If you want a performance hybrid there's the P1, LaFerrari, 918, and NSX. The NSX is a cheap way to get some of what the 918 offers, but it's hard to say if it's worth the tremendous weight penalty. I should have a chance to drive one next year but I doubt I'll have a chance to go back to back with a 991 Turbo, R8, or 570 so unfortunately I won't have a good yard stick.
SenorTaylor Wrote:I agree with Evan. I don't know if it's the rose tinted glasses or not, but looking back, it seems like affordable, simple, sporty cars are falling by the wayside a bit and every manufacturer is trying to shoot for the stars and forgetting the lower markets.Thing is that when there were more relatively affordable sports cars no one bought them, that's why they went away. Then there's the fact that SUV's are a license to print money and it's no surprise that there aren't a lot of affordable sports cars.
Enthusiasts are always bitching about these cars but when someone builds it everyone wants to buy it used. Look at the 4C. Everyone should be selling dope on the side to buy one but it looks like they're not selling well. Instead, muscle cars are flying off the lots. For the most part, horsepower and straight line speed sells cars.
Quote:If a really cool, affordable model is offered, it's not in the US.I can't really think of any significant performance models we don't get here. Lotus, but that's because they're always flirting with bankruptcy. After that the only performance cars we don't get are from brands that aren't sold here.
Re: Automotive News Discussion - Evan - 12-22-2015
G.Irish Wrote:Don't blame the guys in Ohio, blame the guys in Japan. The only way the NSX loyalists were able to convince the head honchos to sign off on the project, was to pitch it as a flagship for SH-AWD and a performance hybrid.The way I understand it/read it was that Japan designed version 1, which had a production based V6 mounted transversely which was that great sounding light blue car a couple years back. Then it was given to HPD(?) in Ohio who went all 'murika on it, and put in a longitudinal boosted cossie V6, stretching out the tail and uglifying it in the process.
Quote:Even then, it was the Ohio crew who successfully argued that a naturally-aspirated V6 wouldn't be enough. It added a bit of weight but this was gonna be a really heavy car either way.yeah thats what Im getting at, they fucked it up. that makes this abomination their fault.
The base 911 makes 370hp
The stock V6 RLX makes 310 in luxo barge form. Its safe to assume that an engineering company like honda can pull at least 60-90hp out of that engine (probably more) without breaking a sweat or jacking up the cost.
That most certainly gets the job done IMO, in exactly the same way the original car got the job done.
Quote:I don't think Honda really cares about selling a lot of these cars, as evidenced by the very low production capacity. They sold about 3000 of them back in '91, they probably won't make even a third of that next year.No arguments here, but Im saying Honda is wrong for not keeping the original goals and market of the car.
Quote:Thing is that when there were more relatively affordable sports cars no one bought them, that's why they went away. Then there's the fact that SUV's are a license to print money and it's no surprise that there aren't a lot of affordable sports cars.I just dont see how doubling the price fixes that equation. The 150k+ market is getting way oversaturated and there are only so many buyers to go around. There is at least an order of mangnitude more buyers in the 80-100k range. There is NO car that competes with the 911 and it sells like crazy even though it looks the same for the past 30 years. Tarted up german coupes dont, and the Corvette (and viper lol) is too unrefined for most.
This was Hondas opportunity to bring it to Porsche like it did with the original NSX.
Re: Automotive News Discussion - G.Irish - 12-22-2015
Evan Wrote:[The way I understand it/read it was that Japan designed version 1, which had a production based V6 mounted transversely which was that great sounding light blue car a couple years back. Then it was given to HPD(?) in Ohio who went all 'murika on it, and put in a longitudinal boosted cossie V6, stretching out the tail and uglifying it in the process.The Ohio team was supposed to do the chassis development, Japan provided the engine. The car was always going to be eSH-AWD, but the reason they changed course on the engine is because they weren't going to be able to hit their performance targets with the n/a V6 (which was supposedly a roided-up SOHC J-series). The Honda R&D folks thought it would be enough to compete with the 458, 911 Turbo, etc but when they tested at VIR they realized it wouldn't be enough.
The other thing about the V6TT is that they specifically wanted to be able to get more power in the future. The original NSX only got a 20 hp bump over its life and the NSX project lead said that was something they wanted to avoid. Had they gone N/A there's only so much they could've squeezed out over the years and it would've been hard to meet emissions regs that way, which is why even Ferrari is going turbo.
Quote:The fact that the car was going to have 3 electric motors from the start means that A. it was going to be somewhat heavy and B. it was going to be pricey. That wasn't the Ohio team's decision. Maybe the V6TT added another $15k-20k to the price but there's no way this was going to be a $100k car (what the 91 NSX would be in inflation-adjusted dollars).Quote:Even then, it was the Ohio crew who successfully argued that a naturally-aspirated V6 wouldn't be enough. It added a bit of weight but this was gonna be a really heavy car either way.yeah thats what Im getting at, they fucked it up. that makes this abomination their fault.
The base 911 makes 370hp
The stock V6 RLX makes 310 in luxo barge form. Its safe to assume that an engineering company like honda can pull at least 60-90hp out of that engine (probably more) without breaking a sweat or jacking up the cost.
That most certainly gets the job done IMO, in exactly the same way the original car got the job done.
Quote:I think the car's goals are actually pretty similar. Showcase Honda technology and engineering in a flagship sports car that is reliable and easy to drive. They've jumped up in price segment and I'd agree that they've waded into crowded waters. But like I said, once they made the decision to go eSH-AWD they committed themselves to an expensive and complex path.Quote:I don't think Honda really cares about selling a lot of these cars, as evidenced by the very low production capacity. They sold about 3000 of them back in '91, they probably won't make even a third of that next year.No arguments here, but Im saying Honda is wrong for not keeping the original goals and market of the car.
Quote:I just dont see how doubling the price fixes that equation. The 150k+ market is getting way oversaturated and there are only so many buyers to go around.This I think will be very interesting. In the past there weren't that many players in that segment but now there are 4 or 5, with Ferrari looking to drop a Dino at some point. Given that back drop, I'm thinking the supercar factories are gonna have to do a lot more marketing to sell cars than they ever have before (more commercials, more demo cars, more swag, more car shows). Either that or prices will become a lot more flexible. Even now it looks like people are buying new 650S's for up to $60k below sticker
hock: Quote:There is at least an order of mangnitude more buyers in the 80-100k range. There is NO car that competes with the 911 and it sells like crazy even though it looks the same for the past 30 years. Tarted up german coupes dont, and the Corvette (and viper lol) is too unrefined for most.
This was Hondas opportunity to bring it to Porsche like it did with the original NSX.
If you ask any of the Honda folks, they weren't really aiming at the regular 911 with the original either, they were aiming at the 348. I do think they could've built a very fast car for around $100k this time around if they went with a simple, lightweight concept but Honda wanted to use the NSX as a flagship for its tech, which is why it has brake-by-wire, electric motor torque vectoring, etc. I do think someone could come take a bite out of the 911's market share but everyone who is making a halo car wants to play with the big boys.
There will be a sub $100k sportscar from Honda in the next few years, it's just a question of whether it will only be a S2000 replacement or if there will be a S2000 replacement, and a more expensive coupe somewhere in there.