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+--- Thread: Really? Another Miata thread.... (/showthread.php?tid=11329)
Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - D_Eclipse9916 - 06-02-2017
MCS ballin! You won't be disappointed (but you will be in every other car you drive now). And welcome to aftermarket shit, always something you need to do.
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Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 06-03-2017
I'm like dead tired, it is a pain removing OE header and things, so no write up until later in the week. Header is 90% swapped, one coilover is left to be assembled and installed (already drilled OE pieces), mid pipe is off with the new one ready, and sway bar end links need to be installed. Then it's just torquing and ride height adjustment. Hopefully everything will get done tomorrow.
Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 06-04-2017
No long post again. Still have one issue left
Everything is on the car though
Header and mid pipe. Sounds great so far. Exactly what I wanted. At least with start up and idle and a few 3k revs.
Cobalt front strut bar is on. Fitment was very very tight. Required some banging but on.
Couldn't drive it anywhere because I think I am having an issue with the rear dampers rubbing on connecting plate between the helper and main spring. You can hear what I'm talking about here. I will be taking the rears off for the 3rd time tomorrow to inspect the paint to see where I can find rubbing. 2nd time was because I was missing a piece. Why can't the rears just work... At least I can get the rears off and un-assembled in like 20 minutes now... Why can't I get some instructions... :roll:
Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 06-05-2017
So.. as usual it's a big fiasco at this point. Why do I work on cars at this point? Idk. TL;DR cross threaded lower shock bolt
Trying to troubleshoot helper spring/adapter plate rubbing on body of the damper. This was with the help of the dealer I bought them from which is new to MCS but has done JRZ, etc... Was trying multiple different ways to mount the lower shock assembly to the hub space it out accordingly to maybe stop it's rubbing damper on the helper spring/adapter plate. Both OE washers + MCS spacer. Still rubbed. Removed both washers to run only MCS spacer and bolt. Shock moved freely and bolt is too long. Video here.
Now to where it crossed threaded. I removed just the bolt washer and left the hub washer, MCS spacer, and bolt. Picture. I thought this was going to be the right way. Tightened everything down. Everything felt normal. Got it off stands and still the same noise. So I tried remove the inside bolt and was going to go to Lowe's to pick up washers for the bolt so the MCS spacer hits the hub. The few hardware store washers would be the same length as both OE washers and be the same size as the flanged bolt so it would hit the bottom spherical instead of touching the shock body like the OE washer would do against the bolt. I go to loosen and starts loosen fine. Get about 2-3 turns and it gets hard again like I'm tightening it to the point I can't turn it anymore. I tighten back on as much as possible then try to loosen. Same thing. Tried that a few times but same stuff. So it's stuck on there for now. I'm going to assume that the very tip of the threads must've cross threaded going on at the very back of the hub and upon loosening screwed the hub threads. The bolt looked like it was full against the damper and the damper is pushed up against the spacer and washer. None of that spun when I tried moving it. But, the bolt had to be too long just ever so slightly.
So, to me at this point I'm going to blame MCS for not providing hardware needed to mount rear dampers correctly. There should for sure either be instructions or the proper hardware to mount their dampers on the car. Whether that's a short bolt, washers or another spacer for each side it should be there.
On another note when I emailed them about how I really shouldn't be having to drill the OE rear hardware they told me the dampers weren't designed for OE top hats. I quote, "Our dampers aren't designed to be run with OE top mounts. The rear shocks on our 1WNR dampers use a 16mm shaft which steps down to a 12mm pin - this is the portion that seats in the upper shock mount. In almost every application, those who run our dampers either run an aftermarket shock mount with a polyurethane bushing or spherical bearing; or understand that they might have to modify their OE mounts if they wish to keep them." Yet they provide the 2.5" delrin spring adapter for the rear which means they know for sure there are no aftermarket top hats made for the rear. They would not have provided those adapters otherwise.
Edit: Now that I look at their application list the NC is the only one that has spring adapters.
Onward to what is next. I do not have a torch. I do not want to touch it at this point. I'm going to tow it to a shop either by AAA or rent a UHaul and tow it with my truck. I will call around to see if any shops are able to even work on it.
Scenario 1: They will get the bolt out and be able to re-tap
Scenario 2: The bolt gets out but can't get it re-tapped, new hub
Scenario 3: The bolt shears, requiring drilling, they may be able to re-tap
Scenario 4: The bolts shears, requiring drilling, the can't get it re-tapped, new hub
In the mean time I'm going to call local Mazda dealer and pick up two new bolts(maybe Wednesday they'll get here). I'll then bring the new bolts as well as the old OE washers to a hardware store. I'll match the flange and pick up as many washers needed to match the length of the two OE washers. I'll then have to bring to a shop that has tap/die that size of oe bolts to attempt one of those scenarios.
Regardless I'll be out a few hundred to several hundred dollars (if I have to replace the hubs).
Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - BLINGMW - 06-05-2017
ugh.
Does this help?
![[Image: freak_no_mo-9456.png?rect=0,0,1000,1000&...=640&h=640]](https://images.8tracks.com/cover/i/009/762/970/freak_no_mo-9456.png?rect=0,0,1000,1000&q=98&fm=jpg&fit=max&w=640&h=640)
Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - Senor_Taylor - 06-05-2017
BLINGMW Wrote:ugh.It sure helped me. Thanks!
Does this help?
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Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - D_Eclipse9916 - 06-06-2017
Stop touching it. Get a competent shop to put it together.
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Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 06-06-2017
Update:
The problem has been solved and all pieces needed are with me. Learn from my mistakes.
So, the dampers come with 4 standoffs that are the same(spacers, whatever you call them). Two were used for the fronts on each damper to space the bottom of the 12mm adjustment shaft out from the Karcepts spherical top mount. Sweet fronts are all good.
Move on to the rears you can hear that noise in the previous post. We got to trouble shooting with. We as in Karcepts and me which is the dealer I bought the MCS from. I was told to re-assemble the rears without the other two standoffs as they ware used for spherical spacing only. We thought we were sent extra.
http://i.imgur.com/LdhtORc.jpg
In hindsight these were the pieces needed for the bottom spacing as supposedly the bolt thread size is also 12mm (same ID as the MCS standoff). I have not tested this but this is the way it is supposed to be after Karcepts communicated directly on the phone with MCS. These standoffs from eying in pictures and the video should push the bolt out just enough to not be too long. It will for sure make the bolt a turn or two short but that's not a big deal.
I have yet to try to get the passenger side bolt out. I'm hoping it isn't stuck like the drivers side but we shall see. If it isn't I still to be safe should re tap the end of the hub and replace the bolt.
In my previous post you see the way the MCS spacer and dampers sits so loose with just the bolt. So that MCS standoff would go against the bolt and then that pushes against the spherical just like the spacer does between the hub and damper.
On a side note this again confirms that these rear dampers were for sure intended to use the OE rear top hats. So I should have never received that information of not used for OE top mounts for this specific application. That information may be true for almost 99% of other MCS applications but not for this one. Now why does this matter? Well first, this would have maybe tipped us off that the exact same stand off used for the front damper assembly would've gone on the rear bottom from the very beginning and this whole thing may have never happened. Second, I want people to be aware that these dampers will require drilling of OEM rear pieces... I do not want people to come in like I did and make the same mistakes, have the same issues, have the same questions, and get upset like I have. In all honesty, MCS should add in to their remarks section of their application list "Incl. 2x Upper Delrin Spring Adapters Rear - NEW Will require drilling or modification of OEM rear top mounts"
Regardless I'm on the hook for shop costs and possible hub(s) replacement. Which is very very frustrating but literally nothing I can do at this point if I want to make this car drive able and use this suspension. This has stressed me out but I'm doing my best to stay positive and not be rude but I feel like I've been just losing in the end without anything that turns this into a positive experience.
Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 06-06-2017
And another update. TL;DR I'm a lucky man today. It gon be k.
Started on passenger side tonight. This was the opposite of the "stuck" bolt. The passenger side came out with no issue. Phew. The bolt has about two tiny starting to cross thread threads but nothing to worry about new OE bolt I ordered should fit right in without issue.
Passenger is luckily clean
![[Image: 5HK8Kpy.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/5HK8Kpy.jpg)
![[Image: 50GVB8L.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/50GVB8L.jpg)
![[Image: XLgtbye.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/XLgtbye.jpg)
I then confirmed what was told to me about bottom strut mounting spacing and pieces.
![[Image: 03LIR1G.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/03LIR1G.jpg)
All good news so far.
I sprayed penetrating oil before I started working on passenger side into the stuck bolt on the driver's side. I left the car on the ground and did a quick few turns of tighten and loosen. I jacked the car up on driver's and sprayed some more. I took a break and cleaned the garage a little. Came back and did another loosen as far as I could. I sprayed penetrating oil in and tightened as far as I could. I then loosened until it got tough again and kept going as much as I could with my 1/2" normal socket wrench. Broke out the 15" breaker and it took about a turn before it didn't give that tight feeling. Was able to easily loosen after that with the normal wrench.
Aftermath of bolt:
![[Image: RxlQ4nv.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/RxlQ4nv.jpg)
Lucky again........
Aftermath of shock mounts looks a little rougher in pictures than it looks in person. Going to be getting a tap and hand tool to clean it up. Should be fine in the end... Phew.
![[Image: py4jtzB.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/py4jtzB.jpg)
![[Image: 0eP9Q9A.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/0eP9Q9A.jpg)
![[Image: 4JrUAkT.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/4JrUAkT.jpg)
Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 06-07-2017
Good News: I got the new OE bolts today.
Was able to rent a tap/die set from autozone and got to work on the drivers rear. I tapped it and was able to get the bolt in.
Bad news: still rubbing in the rear. It's the top hat mixed with the delrin adapter. As the damper compresses upward it angles enough to rub the adapter on the wheel side or outside of the car. The top hat needs to be able to move a bit but doesn't since it has nothing to pivot on.
http://imgur.com/LUkJqzj
http://imgur.com/Q0D5mU0
No amount of bottom spacing is enough as I tried both OE washers and it still did it. But, it did take longer to rub under compression as I added spacing on the bottom. The problem with adding too much is the damper will sit so far over the nipple edge it can easily damage it so that won't work.
http://imgur.com/tk8SKkA
Something needs to be figured out with the top hat/top spring adapter as well to get it to not rub.
Videos below:
Delrin spring adapter fitting snug on the OE top hat not under compression
Delrin spring adapter fitting snug with compression
Correct spacing according to MCS yesterday
Adding in OE washer against hub
Adding two OE washers against hub as seen in image above
As you can see it rubs less with more spacing on the bottom. As that pushes the damper more towards the inside of the car. This will give more room under compression before the damper angles too much and slides against the delrin adapter.
I'm not sure how much more I can take of trying to figure this out before actually losing my patience. This much troubleshooting seems to me like I'm just a test fitter over actually purchasing as an application ready piece. It just doesn't sit right with me. I really hope MCS will be able to give quick consultation and support over this persistent problem. They make a great product that I hear nothing but great things about from multiple NASA-MA racing friends, so it's very much a shame this has been such a struggle.
Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 06-08-2017
So, let me take a step back here and try to look at this objectively so I don't look like an asshat even though this is indeed a frustrating time.
MCS provides dampers for the car. They don't provide spring hardware or top mounts. The front of this car works just fine with sphericals. No issues there. Now the rear of the car uses the OE. There is a general problem when converting to 2.5" or 2.25" non tapered, straight race springs that can cause rubbing across the board on any damper on the NC rear. MCS isn't the problem here.
They have done nothing but great communication and support along with Brain at Karcepts. I'll leave it at that. They have provided me a few different methods to try to get this to work even though it's not technically their responsibility which is great.
So, from what I have gathered.
A. Add more spacing on the bottom
This comes with it's own set of issues. How much force can the bottom nipple take? The more spacing we push the damper off of the nipple the less area it has of distributing force properly across the bottom mount. How much can it get away with before there are some issue with damaging it or have a major failure?
B. Somehow angle the top hat under full droop while tightening
So, the top hat needs to be pushed outward aka towards the outside of the car to allow room under compression. Right now it doesn't angle with the damper which it is making the damper rub on the outside of the MCS delrin adapter
C. Somehow get a spherical that solves this issue?
Right now there is one place that has spherical inserts for sale. Will this help angle the top hat under compression? I don't believe it would but it would provide better, overall, consistent damping force. They make it in 10mm but I need it for 12mm I have contacted them to see if it is possible to make a 12mm and if it may fix the issue
Will a full spherical make a difference here. I would say yes but it needs to provide the same travel as OE, imo.
Now I think the real question is why hasn't a company developed rear spherical that retains similar travel of OE but fixes the rubbing issue of race springs? Is it not possible? For higher end dampers I feel like there should be at least an option and it amazes me there is not even with how much these cars are tracked, autocrossed, and raced...
Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - JustinG - 06-08-2017
what do NC race cars use?
Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 06-08-2017
JustinG Wrote:what do NC race cars use?The cup cars? Not sure. I'm guessing full spherical that's custom made I'd bet. Or using oe top mount with a more genius hardware to make it work. A tapered spring would solve this issue of rubbing like the reason why oe is tapered but those are usually mostly long wait times and not as interchangeable unless you order different rates all at once.
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Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - Sully - 06-08-2017
My only question is, and maybe I misinterpreted something in all these posts, but if you knew you needed more space, and wanted to go to the hardware store to buy a bunch of washers to make your own spacer, even if you thought those pieces were extras or mistakes, why not try them. Like I said I may have missed something and I really don't mean to be a dick but just curious. Sorry I don't have any answers to your problems.
I offered to replace an o2 sensor( air fuel ratio sensor because for some stupid reason it's a Cali spec car and uses a super expensive o2 sensor) on my dad's car after consulting Jason thinking it'd be a simple 15 minute job. Well the stupid thing was so seized that it completely stripped after fighting it for over an hour and now I have one hope to chase the thread in the manifold or my dad's in for a super expensive repair and tow bill on top of the $260 sensor.
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Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 06-09-2017
The thing is I did not know until after everything had happened... This is the first time with these type of dampers and I thought things would bolt up and not be confusing. Those pieces that fit in the spherical bottom mount on the rear are the exact same piece that goes on the front damper adjustment piston for spacing. They are the same part nothing is different... It's not even used like it was on the fronts. I first put them on the rear piston like the fronts and that's not where it went because no spherical top mount. Why would we think it would be able to fit a lower rear bolt? I did not know the NC rear had the spacing issue at all either.
Some of you are like omg duh how could this guy not know this stuff. Lol. It seems obvious now after I say things but it isn't during the time.
Let's put it this way. No forum posts about NC MCS, no guidance, no instructions, no diagrams, no nothing. If you can somehow figure something out first try, get everything together properly without anything, while having no experience with any high end dampers before then you just must be a God.
Anyways, I'm going to try and run double OE sized washer spacing. Maybe 3 once a guy gets back to me on the Miata forums. I do not want to run too little area on the nipple.
I'm sitting at 7/8" with the two OE nipple washers and MCS spacer between the hub and damper body.
Each washer is 1/8" and the MCS spacer is 5/8".
Leaves about 5-6/16" on the nipple left.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://imgur.com/d5Qd94c">https://imgur.com/d5Qd94c</a><!-- m -->
It starts to rub over 1/2 probably close to 2/3 of the way through compression. So much better than before but not perfect. So I'll need to buy longer OE bolts. I think 3 OE sized washers would be perfect but I'm worried about losing another 1/8" and leaving only like 4-5/16" of the force to be spread across. One guy is running a lot of spacing on his Ohlins because he went from the tapered springs they come with to straight 2.5" ID Springs like me. He has 3 track seasons so I'm trying to see if he can tell me how much spacing he is running. My guess is 2-3 OE washer region judging by his picture.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://forum.miata.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=267628&d=1496931791">https://forum.miata.net/vb/attachment.p ... 1496931791</a><!-- m -->
Regardless new bolts will be purchased on Belmetric and I'll find some washers from a local hardware store. Can't find fully threaded m12x1.25 locally that's either 40 or 45mm in a class 10.9 like I need.
Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - Sully - 06-09-2017
Try an exhaust shop for bolts maybe? Although​ idk that they'd be 10.9.
And ok fair enough. I guess I missed that they were not used the same way. I was picturing that they were used in some sort of similar manner on the front. Carry on.
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Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - *insertusernamehere* - 06-09-2017
Lol I've missed this entire thing. Too many words. Sorry Ryan, hey at least I didn't troll
Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 06-09-2017
Sully Wrote:Try an exhaust shop for bolts maybe? Although​ idk that they'd be 10.9.
And ok fair enough. I guess I missed that they were not used the same way. I was picturing that they were used in some sort of similar manner on the front. Carry on.
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It's no big deal I can wait on driving it even though it sucks to haha.
You can see here what I talking about for the rear compared to front. This is one of the few things that has been slightly confusing
![[Image: 216d00cc9a56afb67cfc15f38464e681.jpg]](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170609/216d00cc9a56afb67cfc15f38464e681.jpg)
![[Image: bf28f0c4c47ab3b46b67c93d632e8be9.jpg]](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170609/bf28f0c4c47ab3b46b67c93d632e8be9.jpg)
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Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - Sully - 06-09-2017
Oh forgot to add the point of my rambling about the O2 sensor on my previous post that made it kinda relevant.....I hate cars and working on them... At least until I forget that and take on another project
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Re: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 06-09-2017
Sully Wrote:Oh forgot to add the point of my rambling about the O2 sensor on my previous post that made it kinda relevant.....I hate cars and working on them... At least until I forget that and take on another project
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the part I was worried about most with this car was 02 sensor removal. Came off so easily though. I was so happy. Tons of anti seize I have put on almost every bolt I put back on. That usually works but if you haven't worked on it before you get fuckedSent from my Pixel using Tapatalk