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RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - .RJ - 07-19-2019
(07-19-2019, 03:52 PM)ScottyB Wrote: i bet Austria's nice this time of year
Austria has its own far right nationalist bullshit going on, too.
Is Switzerland as expensive to live in as it is to visit?
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 07-19-2019
(07-19-2019, 05:25 PM).RJ Wrote:(07-19-2019, 03:52 PM)ScottyB Wrote: i bet Austria's nice this time of year
Austria has its own far right nationalist bullshit going on, too.
Is Switzerland as expensive to live in as it is to visit?
If you can't have a polite rapist in the white house, just be rich enough to live in fuckin' Switzerland.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - G.Irish - 07-19-2019
(07-19-2019, 01:04 PM)CaptainHenreh Wrote: So, I agree with you on everything yous aid. Here's the spot I'm in:The thing about this is that it might have seemed crazy in November 2016 to be worried about harm coming to any average person as a result of Trump's election. But since then we've gone steadily deeper into uncharted and ugly territory. Should people wait to be alarmed until chaos and violence has well and truly broken out?
1: Trump is a fuckstick, I don't like him, I didn't vote for him, and I won't. Just so we're all clear.
2: The day after Trump was elected (remember the march for science?) I lost a good friend because when they said "Oh my god I'm half jewish half mexican and my wife is bisexual we're going to be thrown into a camp it's going to be HELL", I said "Well over my dead body you will, but also let's not be hysterical, no such thing is going to happen." And last time I checked, they're at their same jobs, in their same cozy apartment, definitely not in a camp.
I see a lot of hand wringing over comparisons to Nazi Germany. You have people saying, 'this is how it happens!' 'We are on our way to fascism!' And other people are like, 'you are being ridiculous, Jews aren't getting rounded up' 'no one is building gas chambers'. My thing is, of course things are not going exactly like the rise of the Third Reich. But there are enough similarities to the ascent of that authoritarian regime (and others) to know that there are only bad things on the horizon.
So obviously it won't be Jewish people getting rounded up. Maybe it'll be an epidemic of immigrants getting murdered by domestic terrorism (we've already had a few incidents). Maybe ICE and CBP will start shooting first and asking questions later. Maybe some nut jobs will try to assassinate Congress members. Who knows what it will be.
So on one hand it seems alarmist and almost silly to be so afraid of what Trump's actions will lead to. But we're already seeing some of that awful stuff peak through. If you had a loved one dating someone who started out ranting about women's rights, then started yelling at her, then started joking about doing harm to her, then started threatening her, then started pushing her around...Would you tell that woman not worry for her safety? Don't worry, he's not gonna kill you?
CaptainHenreh Wrote:I mean, honestly, and I'm asking this in 100% good faith, what the fuck am I supposed to do?
Yes, the economy is good. Yes, unemployment is down. Yes, violent crime is down. People are making money and spending money and FOR THE AVERAGE AMERICAN things have only gotten better in ways that actually matter.
So how can I support economic and domestic policies that I like, when the GOP is just letting Trump do his thing while Cocaine Mitch Makes Shit Happen, and the DNC is literally trying as hard as they can to push stuff I absolutely won't support. I think a higher minimum wage will hurt more people than it helps. I think that blowing away 1 trillion dollars of bad debt without fixing the system that put it there will do only harm, not good. I think that America has done a great job correcting it's climate damage, and that going balls-first into tearing down old buildings because they aren't as efficient as they could be will be a colossal waste of resources. I believe that the correct response to people saying things I find disgusting is not to criminalize that speech but to counter it with speech of my own. I think that our immigration system needs a serious and long-overdue overhaul, but "let everybody in, yee haw!" is maybe the worst Idea I've ever heard in my whole life.
So what the fuck am I supposed to do, then? Trump's gonna be president tomorrow, he's gonna be president the day after, and he's PROBABLY gonna be president in 2022, if the DNC keeps swinging themselves further and further left. So while I agree with everything you said, I also think that there's never, ever, been a better time to be alive and never, ever, been a better time to be an American, and that IF there's a better place to live on planet earth, it's probably got a smaller population than Texas.
So I'm honestly all ears. Other than "well constantly bitch about it", what am I supposed to do?
I struggle with what to do too. I went to a protest against child detention centers, I've donated to a couple of non-profits, and I'm wondering what more I can do. I live in a solidly blue district, but I feel like the next step is to A. push my Congressman to strongly push for impeachment B. look at how I can help campaigns in other districts C. help voter turnout D. push back against a turn to the far left E. educate people who don't know what's going on.
I think that what would change the landscape is if the average Republican Congressman felt like turning against Trump, wasn't political suicide. People need to realize that they can still believe in and support the traditional GOP platform without supporting Trump's brand of crazy. But I dunno. Even if Trump's support among Republicans cratered, I still think it would take a miracle for Senate to even give a whiff of supporting impeachment. But if Trump's support among Republicans cratered, there'd be no chance of him getting re-elected.
For just a little perspective of how people use 'go back to your country' as a racist taunt to minorities:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/19/reader-center/trump-go-back-stories.html
Quote:I am a black woman of biracial ancestry. My mother is a white Jewish woman and my father is black. My facial characteristics are racially ambiguous, and I am often misidentified as Latina, specifically Puerto Rican, Dominican or Cuban.
Several months ago, at a gas station in Jacksonville, Fla., an older white man approached me as I pumped gas into my car.
“How many houses did you clean to buy that convertible?!” he yelled.
Startled, scared and angry, I chose to ignore him because, well, it is a “conceal carry” state.
As I attempted to quickly place the nozzle back onto the pump station, he walked closer to me and with venom in his voice said, “You should take your ass back to Mexico!”
— Chevara Orrin, Fort Lauderdale, Fla.
Quote:I was about 13 when a white classmate overheard me complaining to friends about the Vietnam War. He looked at me and said, “If you don’t like it here, why don’t you go back to Africa?”
I was too shocked to respond. I had never considered Africa to be my homeland. My family has roots in northeastern Louisiana dating back to slavery. To me, my ancestral home was Oak Grove, La.
It wasn’t until much later, after many other such negative interactions, that I understood how, to many whites, African-Americans are not considered to be real Americans, equally deserving of the rights and privileges of citizenship.
— Michael Hornsby, Albany
Quote:As the first-generation daughter of Vietnamese refugees, throughout my entire life I have been told to go back to where I came from. Every single time, those words wound me to my core. My parents fought and sacrificed endlessly to scratch out a life of opportunities for my sisters and me.
Just because my eyes are slanted does not mean I am any less deserving of being here. Just because I am a woman of two languages and two cultures does not mean I am any less American. Just because I see the flaws in our government does not mean I am not patriotic.
In fact, all those things make me inherently more American. This country was built on the backs of immigrants, shaped by hundreds of cultures and molded by the voices of dissent for equality.
— Christina Tran, Greenville, S.C.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - Apoc - 07-19-2019
(07-19-2019, 05:25 PM).RJ Wrote:(07-19-2019, 03:52 PM)ScottyB Wrote: i bet Austria's nice this time of year
Austria has its own far right nationalist bullshit going on, too.
Is Switzerland as expensive to live in as it is to visit?
Like I said...
Everyone just seems so much angrier and hostile than they used to be
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - HAULN-SS - 07-20-2019
Gerald do you care to cite your source for immigrants that are getting murdered in today's society? Congress members getting murdered? and how it relates to Trump/this administration? I sincerely hadn't heard about that if it is happening.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting
Https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/terrorists-immigration-status-nationality-risk-analysis-1975-2017
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 07-20-2019
Well it's nice to know I'm not alone, anyway.
A few things:
1: The comparisons to Nazi Germany aren't entirely out of place, though maybe WW2 Italy is a better comparison. Mussolini was basically "Make Italy Imperial Again", and used violent communists as a justification for power. The big difference, however, *IS* economic prosperity. Which is one of the reasons I harp on it so much, rare is the brutal dictatorship that sprung from wealth and prosperity. (Frankly Venezuela is the only one I can think of, and that didn't come from far-right ideology...)
2: Yeah man, maybe ICE and CPB do start shooting first and asking questions later. Maybe after, I dunno, someone tries to firebomb their offices or something? I mean the detainment camps are bad news, but I think pretending that Trump is where this problem started and ends is extremely shortsighted. Immigration (especially from latin america) has been a disaster for an entire generation now. Probably 50 years or more it's been in need of a resolution with almost nothing happening. We need to press congress to work together on a bill that is compassionate while still serving security interests. Right now it's neither.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - Apoc - 07-20-2019
(07-20-2019, 02:56 AM)HAULN-SS Wrote: Gerald do you care to cite your source for immigrants that are getting murdered in today's society? Congress members getting murdered? and how it relates to Trump/this administration? I sincerely hadn't heard about that if it is happening.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting
Https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/terrorists-immigration-status-nationality-risk-analysis-1975-2017
Ahhh... goodole strawman tactic. Misrepresent the argument to make it easier to refute.
Here you go:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/22/trumps-rhetoric-does-inspire-more-hate-crimes/
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - HAULN-SS - 07-20-2019
(07-20-2019, 10:06 AM)Apoc Wrote:(07-20-2019, 02:56 AM)HAULN-SS Wrote: Gerald do you care to cite your source for immigrants that are getting murdered in today's society? Congress members getting murdered? and how it relates to Trump/this administration? I sincerely hadn't heard about that if it is happening.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting
Https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/terrorists-immigration-status-nationality-risk-analysis-1975-2017
Ahhh... goodole strawman tactic. Misrepresent the argument to make it easier to refute.
Here you go:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/03/22/trumps-rhetoric-does-inspire-more-hate-crimes/r
The article you posted primarily focuses on a crime that happened in another country. Talk about a straw man. Specifically, where are immigrants getting murdered for being here in this country?
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - .RJ - 07-20-2019
Here - https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/04/05/ilhan-omar-death-threat-leads-to-arrest-of-new-york-man/3379387002/?fbclid=IwAR3UTff5WpT9HmszHjTFBwLpvIaTkJ67qnDxbDxfd1Cdfmk-B6ajCoMcaDU
This is happening. Charlottesville happened. Our POTUS is not standing up and saying "no, you're wrong" and instead continuing to fan the flames.
Also, this - https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/19/reader-center/trump-go-back-stories.html
This isnt a Trump thing. This is a human decency thing. I dont think anyone has the right to treat another person that way, and as a middle class white guy its not something I can comprehend.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - Jake - 07-22-2019
Sidenote/somewhat relevant question. When did "owning the libs" become such a thing to focus on? I understand that I don't find conservatives/Republicans to be particularly open-minded or embracing people, but I still vote based on my own beliefs, not because "owning the GOP" is my goal.
It seems like some of those who are so proud of their continued support of Trump and the GOP are proud because they're #owningthelibs and making us mad, not because they actually give a shit about policies.
Also, what do we do about McConnell? Trump is a shitbag but Mitch is worse. As are all of the Senators who support him.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - .RJ - 07-22-2019
Tribalism.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - G.Irish - 07-22-2019
(07-20-2019, 02:56 AM)HAULN-SS Wrote: Gerald do you care to cite your source for immigrants that are getting murdered in today's society? Congress members getting murdered? and how it relates to Trump/this administration? I sincerely hadn't heard about that if it is happening.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Congressional_baseball_shooting
Https://www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/terrorists-immigration-status-nationality-risk-analysis-1975-2017
Hate crimes against immigrants are usually anti-Muslim, and have been happening from before Trump came along, but there are a number of examples since he was elected:
Man shoots 2 Indian men (killing one) after yelling 'get out of my country':
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/07/kansas-man-pleads-guilty-to-fatally-shooting-indian-engineer-in-bar
Man deliberately runs over 8 people he thought were Muslim:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/sunnyvale-driver-isaiah-joel-peoples-hate-crime-charges-today-california-2019-05-30/
3 Men Convicted of Plot to Bomb Somali Immigrants
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/three-southwest-kansas-men-sentenced-prison-plotting-bomb-somali-immigrants-garden-city
Man Shoots and Kills 3 Hispanic People in Walmart
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2017/11/09/was-shooting-killed-3-walmart-motivated-hate
There are a number of other incidents where there were injuries but no deaths. Then there was that MAGA bomber guy who sent package bombs to members of Congress, Hillary, Obama, CNN, basically everyone Trump hates.
(07-20-2019, 09:39 AM)CaptainHenreh Wrote: Well it's nice to know I'm not alone, anyway.I think there are a number of factors with the United States that are different from countries that have gone authoritarian. US institutions are far stronger than most companies that descend into true autocracy. The president can't just dissolve one of the other branches of government, we have a very professional military that swears an oath to the Constitution (not the president), and our base level of corruption isn't as high as countries that go authoritarian, although we've been slipping badly on that front.
A few things:
1: The comparisons to Nazi Germany aren't entirely out of place, though maybe WW2 Italy is a better comparison. Mussolini was basically "Make Italy Imperial Again", and used violent communists as a justification for power. The big difference, however, *IS* economic prosperity. Which is one of the reasons I harp on it so much, rare is the brutal dictatorship that sprung from wealth and prosperity. (Frankly Venezuela is the only one I can think of, and that didn't come from far-right ideology...)
I think WWII Italy is a better parallel, but either way the road we're on leads to a bad place, that may not be like some historical examples but will still be awful. Thankfully Trump is undisciplined and inept, but I worry about what would happen if a more cunning aspiring dictator got elected.
Quote:2: Yeah man, maybe ICE and CPB do start shooting first and asking questions later. Maybe after, I dunno, someone tries to firebomb their offices or something?Yes the thing about all of this dangerous rhetoric is that it is seeding society with explosives and you never really know what the spark will be that sets them off. There's actually a term for that: stochastic terrorism. The more incendiary rhetoric you put out there, the higher the statistical probability that someone will commit a terrorist act (or acts) as a result.
Quote:I mean the detainment camps are bad news, but I think pretending that Trump is where this problem started and ends is extremely shortsighted. Immigration (especially from latin america) has been a disaster for an entire generation now. Probably 50 years or more it's been in need of a resolution with almost nothing happening. We need to press congress to work together on a bill that is compassionate while still serving security interests. Right now it's neither.The immigration problem didn't start with Trump, but the heavy-handed and cruel response to it absolutely did. We can address immigration with a number of strategies without taking toddlers from their mothers and making them sleep on the floor, or making 8 year-olds take care of 3 year-olds. These kids are going to have life-long problems from this treatment.
I get that some people want action of immigration policy, cool. But this ain't it.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - Apoc - 07-23-2019
(07-19-2019, 10:01 AM).RJ Wrote: Did these same folks have the same indifference towards Obama? Just curious.
Republicans report, on average, to believe they were less prejudiced time coincident with Trump getting elected. That seems to jive with anecdotes of conservative voters who believe Obama was the one who ruined race relations in America. What's interesting is the trend for Dems, after the initial bump. It looks like Trump has helped erode negative stereotypes... maybe because people don't want to be like him? The lines for blacks and hispanic for D are about parallel, but the R hispanic line decreased slower than black. It's not hard to infer correlation there.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/prejudice-among-white-americans-might-be-declining-in-the-trump-era
![[Image: hopkins-prejudice-1.png?w=575]](https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/hopkins-prejudice-1.png?w=575)
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - WRXtranceformed - 07-26-2019
So are we silent now after the Mueller hearing, which apparently was a disaster? Maybe our reps can all get back to work now and legislate like we're paying them to do?
Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - JPolen01 - 07-26-2019
Those hearings were nothing more than a PR stunt. Mueller already stated he would give no new information the was not disclosed in his report.
The Democrats do need to shit or get off the pot though. Either bring articles of impeachment or stop with it all together. You can't have it both ways.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - G.Irish - 07-29-2019
I wouldn't call the Mueller testimony a disaster. It just didn't really reveal any new information beyond what was in the report, which was already damning. Mueller stated before he testified that he was going to stick to the contents of the report, and he did just that.
The House Democratic leadership is apparently afraid of their own shadow, so I guess they thought Mueller's testimony would convince people that didn't read the report that impeachment is necessary. But they didn't need Mueller's testimony for that, all the key findings are already in the report. They're waiting for the winds to change or something, but they need to stop worrying about the wind, and be the wind. The GOP would not have hesitated to impeach Obama if there was credible evidence that he committed even one count of obstruction of justice, even if they knew they couldn't convict him the Senate.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 07-29-2019
(07-29-2019, 01:39 PM)G.Irish Wrote: I wouldn't call the Mueller testimony a disaster. It just didn't really reveal any new information beyond what was in the report, which was already damning. Mueller stated before he testified that he was going to stick to the contents of the report, and he did just that.
The House Democratic leadership is apparently afraid of their own shadow, so I guess they thought Mueller's testimony would convince people that didn't read the report that impeachment is necessary. But they didn't need Mueller's testimony for that, all the key findings are already in the report. They're waiting for the winds to change or something, but they need to stop worrying about the wind, and be the wind. The GOP would not have hesitated to impeach Obama if there was credible evidence that he committed even one count of obstruction of justice, even if they knew they couldn't convict him the Senate.
This.
It was a disaster in that it was all of the Sturm and none of the Drang, so it just comes off as theater.
I wish they'd get on with impeachment hearings and burn what little political capital they have left before the primaries...
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - JPolen01 - 08-15-2019
Hickenlooper is expected to bow out of the Presidential race today. It is rumored he will instead focus on running for Senate against Cory Gardner. Gardner's seat is considered to be pretty vulnerable.
This could be a good first step for the Dems. They need more candidates focused on running for Senate if they have any hopes of being effective should they win the Presidency.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - .RJ - 08-15-2019
Someone should take that piece of shit Steve King's senate seat.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - .RJ - 08-15-2019
Is this still ok as long as the economy is good and the gov't isnt bothering them? Just checking.
https://www.rawstory.com/2019/08/white-supremacist-gop-congressman-claims-he-wants-to-ban-abortion-to-protect-little-black-babies/
Quote:The suggestion from Rep. Steve King (R-IA) that rape and incest victims should be forced to carry pregnancies to term because it increases the birthrate has led to furious criticism from both sides of the aisle. One of the many to criticize him was Sen. Cory Booker (D-NJ), who is running for president.
On Thursday, King hit back at Cory Booker, casting himself as a champion of minorities for his stance on abortion:
Steve King
✔
@SteveKingIA
Hey @CoryBooker My bill, HR 490, the Heartbeat Protection Act, protects more MINORITY lives than any bill moved as far in the History of Congress. What is ‘hateful’ is your support of killing little black babies, little brown babies, little Asian babies - BOTH born and unborn.
636
5:06 PM - Aug 15, 2019
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Quite aside from the issue of King accusing a black senator of hating minorities, this is a bit of an odd argument coming from a congressman with an extensive history of openly white supremacist views.