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+--- Thread: You know what really grinds my gears?! (/showthread.php?tid=10098)
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - *insertusernamehere* - 12-07-2016
WRXtranceformed Wrote:Maybe just another sales-related gripe here, but when people ask you to build an integrated, visualized component that doesn't technically exist yet into a custom software platform that was already built for them by another company. And then are anxious about the time it takes to scope / price it, and then aren't willing to share what budget they can allocate to it. Really? So you're going to ask a company to build something that isn't an off the shelf product, and you aren't willing to at least offer up a range that you can invest in it so that time is not mutually wasted on both sides (with sales, engineering teams, client side, etc.)? I have a feeling Gerald feels me on this per some of the conversations we have had in the past.I'm 100% sure your situations are a lot more delicate than what I deal with advance but have you ever played "well you're gonna get what you pay for" kind of reasoning on them? Or are your situations too delicate for that kind of ultimatum speak.
I mean come on, I get holding your cards a little close to your chest if you're negotiating on a used car lot or something but we are talking about corporate budgets here. You know it's going to be expensive by nature and yet all you offer up is that you want to spend "as little as possible". It's an annoying part of the job when you have to go through a long song and dance for a customer that mostly likely will end up balking at the price anyway.
Exact conversation i had:
Me: alright it's $42.99
Customer: FORTY TWO NINETY NINE?! you don't have anything cheaper?
Me: yeah we have one for $15.39, it doesn't have a warranty.
Customer: OK are those good ones? can i bring it back if I don't need it?
Me: no they're cheaper and probably going to break and you can't bring it back that's why it's priced that way
Customer: *blank stare*
Me: I'll go grab them for...
Customer: ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALRIGHT JUST GIMME THE OTHER ONE
Humans. So easy to guilt trip into my sale lol.
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - WRXtranceformed - 12-08-2016
*insertusernamehere* Wrote:WRXtranceformed Wrote:Maybe just another sales-related gripe here, but when people ask you to build an integrated, visualized component that doesn't technically exist yet into a custom software platform that was already built for them by another company. And then are anxious about the time it takes to scope / price it, and then aren't willing to share what budget they can allocate to it. Really? So you're going to ask a company to build something that isn't an off the shelf product, and you aren't willing to at least offer up a range that you can invest in it so that time is not mutually wasted on both sides (with sales, engineering teams, client side, etc.)? I have a feeling Gerald feels me on this per some of the conversations we have had in the past.I'm 100% sure your situations are a lot more delicate than what I deal with advance but have you ever played "well you're gonna get what you pay for" kind of reasoning on them? Or are your situations too delicate for that kind of ultimatum speak.
I mean come on, I get holding your cards a little close to your chest if you're negotiating on a used car lot or something but we are talking about corporate budgets here. You know it's going to be expensive by nature and yet all you offer up is that you want to spend "as little as possible". It's an annoying part of the job when you have to go through a long song and dance for a customer that mostly likely will end up balking at the price anyway.
Exact conversation i had:
Me: alright it's $42.99
Customer: FORTY TWO NINETY NINE?! you don't have anything cheaper?
Me: yeah we have one for $15.39, it doesn't have a warranty.
Customer: OK are those good ones? can i bring it back if I don't need it?
Me: no they're cheaper and probably going to break and you can't bring it back that's why it's priced that way
Customer: *blank stare*
Me: I'll go grab them for...
Customer: ALRIGHT ALRIGHT ALRIGHT JUST GIMME THE OTHER ONE
Humans. So easy to guilt trip into my sale lol.
Yeah, there are a host of sales techniques we use on any objection you can imagine. We operate almost entirely now in the "solution selling" world and a lot of our products are pretty complex so you have to be willing to lay it all out there as a customer and a provider. Frankly I think that's where the frustration comes in because a very select few buyers (and some procurement departments :evil: :evil: ) try to marginalize the client / partner relationship into a buyer / vendor relationship and it almost never goes smoothly. Again, it's really different if you're just buying a commodity but when you're trying to purchase something that literally nobody else in the world can provide at a level of quality, it just doesn't make sense to try to do business like you're bargaining with Randy the Used Car Dealer. I guess to put it more bluntly, our time is valuable (probably more valuable than theirs) and it doesn't make sense to him and haw if you're not willing to be realistic to a seller about whether or not you can afford that type of work. (ie would you go to a Ferrari dealership not just to test drive but to string along a salesperson for a few weeks knowing you really can't afford one?)
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - WRXtranceformed - 12-08-2016
I'll also say that now that I'm not longer in direct sales anymore, I usually leave it to the salesperson to deal with "those people" since that's what they're getting paid for. But obviously, I do get brought into these conversations as a SME and am actively involved in scoping and the sales process.
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - .RJ - 12-08-2016
WRXtranceformed Wrote:I mean come on, I get holding your cards a little close to your chest if you're negotiating on a used car lot or something but we are talking about corporate budgets here. You know it's going to be expensive by nature and yet all you offer up is that you want to spend "as little as possible". It's an annoying part of the job when you have to go through a long song and dance for a customer that mostly likely will end up balking at the price anyway.
That's because they're bidding the thing out from multiple vendors. Its stupid. Just say "this is our budget, show us what you can do under that cap". Or they have no fucking idea how much it costs and their company is terrible at setting budgets and understanding ROI from them (the last company I worked for was like this).
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - WRXtranceformed - 12-08-2016
.RJ Wrote:THISWRXtranceformed Wrote:I mean come on, I get holding your cards a little close to your chest if you're negotiating on a used car lot or something but we are talking about corporate budgets here. You know it's going to be expensive by nature and yet all you offer up is that you want to spend "as little as possible". It's an annoying part of the job when you have to go through a long song and dance for a customer that mostly likely will end up balking at the price anyway.
That's because they're bidding the thing out from multiple vendors. Its stupid. Just say "this is our budget, show us what you can do under that cap". Or they have no fucking idea how much it costs and their company is terrible at setting budgets and understanding ROI from them (the last company I worked for was like this).
This is also how I feel about most "RFPs". Colossal waste of time unless you are the budget "vendor" 9 times out of 10.
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - .RJ - 12-08-2016
And if yore the budget vendor, you get the contract and then get paid more later to un-fuck it.
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - G.Irish - 12-14-2016
WRXtranceformed Wrote:Maybe just another sales-related gripe here, but when people ask you to build an integrated, visualized component that doesn't technically exist yet into a custom software platform that was already built for them by another company. And then are anxious about the time it takes to scope / price it, and then aren't willing to share what budget they can allocate to it. Really? So you're going to ask a company to build something that isn't an off the shelf product, and you aren't willing to at least offer up a range that you can invest in it so that time is not mutually wasted on both sides (with sales, engineering teams, client side, etc.)? I have a feeling Gerald feels me on this per some of the conversations we have had in the past.I usually don't run into this as much, but I do get the people who don't know what they don't know asking for estimates for things that they clearly cannot get greenlit. Or the opposite side of it, where I have people who tell the customer we can do XXX with the wrong tool for the job on a timescale that is not realistic. That probably causes me the most misery because that's how so many shitty and wasteful systems have gotten signed off on.
I mean come on, I get holding your cards a little close to your chest if you're negotiating on a used car lot or something but we are talking about corporate budgets here. You know it's going to be expensive by nature and yet all you offer up is that you want to spend "as little as possible". It's an annoying part of the job when you have to go through a long song and dance for a customer that mostly likely will end up balking at the price anyway.
You know what really grinds my gears?! - JPolen01 - 12-14-2016
Incompetent business owners. Dealing with the small business world has really opened my eyes to the pure incompetence people have. I have no idea how some of these people run a business and make a profit.
I just met with a lady who wants to let her employees decide whether they are a W2 employee or a 1099. She also wanted to be on the payroll of her own LLC...that's not how this works. That's not how any of this works!!
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - *insertusernamehere* - 12-15-2016
JPolen01 Wrote:Incompetent business owners. Dealing with the small business world has really opened my eyes to the pure incompetence people have. I have no idea how some of these people run a business and make a profit.Lol
I just met with a lady who wants to let her employees decide whether they are a W2 employee or a 1099. She also wanted to be on the payroll of her own LLC...that's not how this works. That's not how any of this works!!
![[Image: 88e7d6be57d49a088a04f54c2b3d8036.jpg]](http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161215/88e7d6be57d49a088a04f54c2b3d8036.jpg)
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - Ken - 12-15-2016
*insertusernamehere* Wrote:JPolen01 Wrote:Incompetent business owners. Dealing with the small business world has really opened my eyes to the pure incompetence people have. I have no idea how some of these people run a business and make a profit.Lol
I just met with a lady who wants to let her employees decide whether they are a W2 employee or a 1099. She also wanted to be on the payroll of her own LLC...that's not how this works. That's not how any of this works!!
I laughed at this and then got really sad. What a roller-coaster.
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - JustinG - 12-21-2016
Dealing with production/front line managers who you met with and met with his counterparts to develop stuff for and when you request a meeting to finalize details prior to release in January....
"I'm sorry, what is this about again?" "Who signed off on this?"
You did MFer, wanna see the email chain?
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - WRXtranceformed - 12-22-2016
JustinG Wrote:Dealing with production/front line managers who you met with and met with his counterparts to develop stuff for and when you request a meeting to finalize details prior to release in January....Or how about when the client asks where parts of a certain project are after delivery, when this is the absolute first time they have ever mentioned wanting them (ie not a part of the scope)? How about when they want the additions right before the Chrismas break? :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
"I'm sorry, what is this about again?" "Who signed off on this?"
You did MFer, wanna see the email chain?
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - Steve85 - 01-07-2017
People who poor their drinks out in a parking spot. It's always right where you step to get in and out of the car. Get your ass out and walk the 20 feet to the trash can that's at the entrance to every convenience store. I don't want to track that sludge into my car...
Also - Gov't contracting offices. Just submitted a proposal on the 5th - it was released two days before Thanksgiving and due three days after New Year. They drop the RFP, go on vacation for Thanksgiving, come back to answer questions and release the amendment, then take off for the holidays. I'd be OK if the people running the RFP were as my friend puts it "at the pointy end of the spear" where they don't get to home, those folks are making a huge sacrifice and who am I to complain but the KOs are civilians sitting in comfortable offices safely stateside and the project start date is 8 months out. It's every year this shit...
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - WRXtranceformed - 01-07-2017
To be honest, there's so much money in the private sector and *generally speaking* enterprise companies move a lot faster in the decision-making process than state and federal entities. I don't know how companies make a living working with "those people" in the federal space. Thankfully our org just built a team that just handles state / federal proposals so I just let them deal with that BS. Granted I have only written a small handful of state/federal proposals, but I have absolutely burnt up more $ in man hours responding to RFPs than I have won $ from them.
RFP says to me that you are not serious about building a relationship beyond buyer-vendor, so those requests usually got treated as such and went to the bottom of my pile.
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - .RJ - 01-07-2017
WRXtranceformed Wrote:RFP says to me that you are not serious about building a relationship beyond buyer-vendor, so those requests usually got treated as such and went to the bottom of my pile.
The gov't operates on a 100% 'i dont trust you' level.
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - WRXtranceformed - 01-07-2017
.RJ Wrote:Yep, and from my experience they usually want to pay you as little as possible for the most difficult, time-consuming, valuable work. Not exactly a mutually beneficial relationship :lol: (ie at 20%+ YOY growth we don't need your business that's going to cost us money)WRXtranceformed Wrote:RFP says to me that you are not serious about building a relationship beyond buyer-vendor, so those requests usually got treated as such and went to the bottom of my pile.
The gov't operates on a 100% 'i dont trust you' level.
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - Steve85 - 01-07-2017
Yeah, not much love lost between proposal folks and contracting office. Most of the relationship happens at the technical level where that is very much a partnership. It's really the fun part of the challenge to structure the response and strategy in a way that makes you very price competitive with a get well plan. And for the get well plan to work you need that relationship for the technical people to put the pressure on the contracting office. What we do is largely "cost plus fixed fee" so you never lose money, just less fee and burn the 5yr budget in 3yrs. Rinse, repeat....
As far as private vs federal, the government obviously does things and has needs not found in the private sector and has a lot of money to spend. A lot of opportunity (including from personal perspective to be involved in so many different kinds of work) but the red tape and regulatory environment can be frustrating. It was kind of funny a few weeks ago, I was updating my boss about a project and told him "we were waiting to here back from the customer on how much they have to spend" and he lit up! Had to remind him this particular effort was essentially commercial and all the rules (well most) we normally live by are out the window.
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - Senor_Taylor - 01-08-2017
The washer fluid that GM dealerships use to refill customers under warranty sucks. Heading through Arkansas in the middle of the night on the way to Frisco for the game and the windshield is covered in salt. I try to use the washer fluid and it's all frozen! It was only about 15 degrees at a low so that's unacceptable for it to freeze. We had to pull off and idle the truck so the lines would thaw out and we added decent fluid to mix with it and lower the freezing point. Very frustrating as we had to stop and clean the windshield multiple times before it thawed out.
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - *insertusernamehere* - 01-10-2017
When people complain about changing weather. Yes. We learned this like week 2 of science class in tenth grade. The weather is constantly fucking changing you don't need to tell me how crazy it is it's gonna be 50 and raining on Thursday after it "WAS JUST SNOWING AND 20 DEGREES!!". It's been doing this every year since you were born and will continue to do so, now can we stop acting surprised over the fucking obvious?
Disclaimer: having the same conversation 50x in one day gets to you.
Re: You know what really grinds my gears?! - *insertusernamehere* - 01-18-2017
When in a restaurant/dining room/any fucking where and someone feels they must talk to the ENTIRE ROOM about their conversation like where is your inside voice? You're talking to the one dude in front you and I'm on the other side why do we all need to know about your gpa and how stressful it is to drive into the sun every morning going into the city. K. Done.