+- Madison Motorsports (https://forum.mmsports.org)
+-- Forum: Madison Motorsports (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Lounge (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Thread: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) (/showthread.php?tid=11293)
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 01-09-2019
(01-09-2019, 12:08 PM)D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:(01-09-2019, 11:44 AM)CaptainHenreh Wrote:(01-09-2019, 10:16 AM)D_Eclipse9916 Wrote: Having a trucking registration fee/passenger registration fee built into our current registrations, or through gas tax is a far more effective and less costly way to tax those using roads.
I am 100% against a gasoline tax for this purpose. The issue isn't people who live on the I-81 corridor, it's the 11 million tractor trailers per year traveling through Virginia on their way to god-knows-where.
A gasoline tax does not impact them. You can fill up wherever diesel is cheap and drive straight through Virginia without stopping. A toll means you don't pay unless you use the road, and an electronic-only toll is pretty inexpensive to implement. A gas tax means the least-offenders, yet greatest-sufferers pay the largest burden. Bullshit, no thank you.
Hence increasing those trucking registration fees. The Heavy Vehicle Use Tax should be upped which is a zero cost to citizens...
Unfortunately what I refer to as "intended" money buckets tend to be used everywhere vs where it is truly in need due to our political process.
As far as gasoline tax, it was a misnomer; trucks use diesel. Up the diesel tax. Private citizens can then keep their receipts and send in for the personal diesel tax exemption (which is available already now). Every state is implementing these toll roads; and the overhead from having to invoice those who do not have EZ-passes (which is part of the process) costs tax payer's money along with all the sensors. It's not quite as cheap as you are making it to be and is an ongoing cost.
Yeah, trucking registration fees to all those trucks registered in Delaware or wherever? HVUT is federal, and I can't rely on them for jack shit. Further, allow me to quote myself again: "You can fill up wherever diesel is cheap and drive straight through Virginia without stopping." Increasing a tax on diesel isn't as effective, but don't take my word for it.
Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - Senor_Taylor - 01-09-2019
I bet you could move to another state to avoid some taxes you don't like. Good idea.
Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - .RJ - 01-09-2019
(01-09-2019, 03:50 PM)Senor_Taylor Wrote: I bet you could move to another state to avoid some taxes you don't like. Good idea.
The man always gets his money. Just trade one tax for another.
Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - Senor_Taylor - 01-09-2019
I'm moving to Texas to cross the border to fill my car with gas.
Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - D_Eclipse9916 - 01-09-2019
(01-09-2019, 12:30 PM)CaptainHenreh Wrote:(01-09-2019, 12:08 PM)D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:(01-09-2019, 11:44 AM)CaptainHenreh Wrote:(01-09-2019, 10:16 AM)D_Eclipse9916 Wrote: Having a trucking registration fee/passenger registration fee built into our current registrations, or through gas tax is a far more effective and less costly way to tax those using roads.
I am 100% against a gasoline tax for this purpose. The issue isn't people who live on the I-81 corridor, it's the 11 million tractor trailers per year traveling through Virginia on their way to god-knows-where.
A gasoline tax does not impact them. You can fill up wherever diesel is cheap and drive straight through Virginia without stopping. A toll means you don't pay unless you use the road, and an electronic-only toll is pretty inexpensive to implement. A gas tax means the least-offenders, yet greatest-sufferers pay the largest burden. Bullshit, no thank you.
Hence increasing those trucking registration fees. The Heavy Vehicle Use Tax should be upped which is a zero cost to citizens...
Unfortunately what I refer to as "intended" money buckets tend to be used everywhere vs where it is truly in need due to our political process.
As far as gasoline tax, it was a misnomer; trucks use diesel. Up the diesel tax. Private citizens can then keep their receipts and send in for the personal diesel tax exemption (which is available already now). Every state is implementing these toll roads; and the overhead from having to invoice those who do not have EZ-passes (which is part of the process) costs tax payer's money along with all the sensors. It's not quite as cheap as you are making it to be and is an ongoing cost.
Yeah, trucking registration fees to all those trucks registered in Delaware or wherever? HVUT is federal, and I can't rely on them for jack shit. Further, allow me to quote myself again: "You can fill up wherever diesel is cheap and drive straight through Virginia without stopping." Increasing a tax on diesel isn't as effective, but don't take my word for it.
Maybe I am missing where that is said in that report? Their estimated cost impact of a sales/diesl tax increase is less cost vs the toll road. (They also made a lot of bad assumptions on both sides in their financial estimates IMO)
I will drop any argument with you; I have learned that you just fight no matter. Same with Adam
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - ScottyB - 01-09-2019
i guarantee you, if an I-81 toll ever went through, it would force enough traffic onto 11 that the local constabulary would get Lucky-In-Vegas rich overnight writing the inevitable speeding tickets in every 1-light town between Front Royal and Christiansburg.
the toll idea absolutely pisses me off. at least in Roanoke - most folks with the white collar, healthcare, and management jobs already live in town and commute a couple miles. the blue collars are the ones coming in from Hollins, Christiansburg, Troutville, etc to make ends meet. they're getting boned enough paying to fuel their 45-60 minute commutes. the trucks are the problem, every time. make them pay, and then give us the 3rd lane we've been asking for since forever. and frankly, they don't REALLY pay in the end, the cost just gets passed on to their clients/wholesalers, which we then pay for in marginal amounts.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - Ken - 01-09-2019
“They say it’s a medieval solution — a wall. That’s true. It’s medieval because it worked then and it works even better now,” Trump said, adding that Israel “put up a wall and they don’t have a problem anymore”
Yes. The wall in Israel is renowned for its efficacy. Good lord, he is dumb as shit.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 01-09-2019
(01-09-2019, 04:36 PM)D_Eclipse9916 Wrote: I will drop any argument with you; I have learned that you just fight no matter. Same with Adam
I mean I don't see how this impacts you at all but whatever homie.
If I have to choose between a toll that I can avoid and a regional fuel tax that I can't, I'll take the toll tyvm. Don't know why that was hard to understand but...meh.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - rherold9 - 01-09-2019
(01-09-2019, 05:39 PM)Ken Wrote: “They say it’s a medieval solution — a wall. That’s true. It’s medieval because it worked then and it works even better now,” Trump said, adding that Israel “put up a wall and they don’t have a problem anymore”
Yes. The wall in Israel is renowned for its efficacy. Good lord, he is dumb as shit.
![[Image: frustrated.gif]](http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/frustrated.gif)
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - V1GiLaNtE - 01-10-2019
(01-09-2019, 06:03 PM)rherold9 Wrote:(01-09-2019, 05:39 PM)Ken Wrote: “They say it’s a medieval solution — a wall. That’s true. It’s medieval because it worked then and it works even better now,” Trump said, adding that Israel “put up a wall and they don’t have a problem anymore”
Yes. The wall in Israel is renowned for its efficacy. Good lord, he is dumb as shit.
Having visited that country recently and getting a better understanding of the culture and history that might be one of the most ignorant comments ever made. By anyone. Ever.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - Kaan - 01-10-2019
(01-09-2019, 04:49 PM)ScottyB Wrote: i guarantee you, if an I-81 toll ever went through, it would force enough traffic onto 11 that the local constabulary would get Lucky-In-Vegas rich overnight writing the inevitable speeding tickets in every 1-light town between Front Royal and Christiansburg.
the toll idea absolutely pisses me off. at least in Roanoke - most folks with the white collar, healthcare, and management jobs already live in town and commute a couple miles. the blue collars are the ones coming in from Hollins, Christiansburg, Troutville, etc to make ends meet. they're getting boned enough paying to fuel their 45-60 minute commutes. the trucks are the problem, every time. make them pay, and then give us the 3rd lane we've been asking for since forever. and frankly, they don't REALLY pay in the end, the cost just gets passed on to their clients/wholesalers, which we then pay for in marginal amounts.
Scotty wins post 666...
you are absolutely right with your perspective, these blue collar folks have a hard time paying a speeding ticket sometimes. BUT philosophically Rex is right (the lesser of two evils is the toll)... no matter how you shake it, its going to cause pain in communities from Clear Brook to Bristol.
I cant wait to here the complaints for the moms and dads going to visit timmy and jenny at ALL the colleges on I-81.
In the northern SV, the "tourism" is the blue ridge parkway, etc. but the real growth in towns lately has been the booze. its going cost tourists more to get the beer and the beer is going to cost more (they are all exclusively using grains from I81 and a maltster of I81)...
this was all caused IMHO by poor planning on the politicians part. NOW, since they planned poorly, they come back to the well for more money. Things have to change... you have to have legit long term planning on all levels of government... how to pay for it, how to upgrade it, how to maintain it... and we shouldn't stand for any money shifting stuff without clearly outlined "rules."
RJ pointed out on my facebook rant (I almost never post political stuff, unless you count my gun posts as political like facebook does)... old man GK said "oh well these toll roads go away once they are paid for" ... RJ responded with something like "well the Dulles Toll road is going strong... its not going anywhere, its now tied to the metro."
You know whats next... they HAVE to raise the toll road price because they cant afford to pay for metro and maintain that road. whatever politician agreed to that should be run out of town, tarred and feathered.
The last several pages are people jumping on us "anti-tax" folks. well its coming to roost. this is the slippery slope.... and you are watching it evolve (quickly) in NOVA and western VA. This is what we are against. Give an inch and the people in Richmond will take a mile. And its true in every county, every state, and at the federal level.
Politicians need real plans for spending money, for starting projects, etc. All they are doing is spending money they don't have at our expense.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - .RJ - 01-10-2019
Yes the 'toll road' (i.e. dulles airport road) money just gets repurposed for other things. Like the metro, that didnt change road use at all. Oh and they raise prices every year.
and the one thing that makes me really fucking salty about taxes and I dont usually get wound up about it - when I sold my other house I had to pay some fucking tax that is supposed to go towards transportation improvements. I guess thats how Richmond raised the rest of the money to finish the fucking metro.
And the county is getting the train run on them by the property developers, approving everything, relaxing the rules, increasing property density in Reston and doing nothing to improve the infrastructure. The metro cant be the ONLY answer.
I'll go back to my hole now.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - Ken - 01-10-2019
(01-10-2019, 08:09 AM)Kaan Wrote:(01-09-2019, 04:49 PM)ScottyB Wrote: i guarantee you, if an I-81 toll ever went through, it would force enough traffic onto 11 that the local constabulary would get Lucky-In-Vegas rich overnight writing the inevitable speeding tickets in every 1-light town between Front Royal and Christiansburg.
the toll idea absolutely pisses me off. at least in Roanoke - most folks with the white collar, healthcare, and management jobs already live in town and commute a couple miles. the blue collars are the ones coming in from Hollins, Christiansburg, Troutville, etc to make ends meet. they're getting boned enough paying to fuel their 45-60 minute commutes. the trucks are the problem, every time. make them pay, and then give us the 3rd lane we've been asking for since forever. and frankly, they don't REALLY pay in the end, the cost just gets passed on to their clients/wholesalers, which we then pay for in marginal amounts.
The last several pages are people jumping on us "anti-tax" folks. well its coming to roost. this is the slippery slope.... and you are watching it evolve (quickly) in NOVA and western VA. This is what we are against. Give an inch and the people in Richmond will take a mile. And its true in every county, every state, and at the federal level.
Politicians need real plans for spending money, for starting projects, etc. All they are doing is spending money they don't have at our expense.
Totally understand this, but these past few pages also show why a use-tax also isn't as easy as it seems.
It also isn't exactly an, "anti-tax" position to feel that, "politicians need real plans for spending money, for starting projects, etc" How exactly would you propose this being solved without a tax of some sort?
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - Kaan - 01-10-2019
Cliff Notes: The people complained about truck use, but not the trucks and the people have to pay the use tax.
the issue started prior to the 1987 completion of the road... the planning and development of the road didn't plan for expansion. well its over 30 years later so we are stuck with the following issue.
As you seem to be defining a use tax, you think this is okay. As other people see the use tax, it isn't okay.
The locals complained to Richmond, "there is ever increased TRUCK traffic on I81, causing accidents and traffic 24 hours a day"... the SOLUTION being proposed is "Bob and Mary pay me an annual fee and we will toll the trucks." The issue is the trucks, not Bob and Mary.
This is where the use tax issue is getting misunderstood. Bob and Mary already pay a use tax through fuel that is supposed to hand road issues. As has been pointed out, the 16 wheelers can cross the entire commonwealth without stopping for their fuel.
They are holding at least 200 gallons of diesel... and they happen to be required to map out their routes, fuel stops, etc. for various company policies and state/fed regulations. so the diesel tax (use tax) isn't helping the roads as much as they thought.
Instead of fixing the diesel use tax issue alone, they are bringing in Bob and Mary. That's the issue people have with it.
This is a fairly simplistic view... its actually quite complicated. Local governments acted in certain was to get trucking and warehouse jobs along I81... land was "cheap," the jobs fit the demographics for skills, etc. This was done with little forethought and piled onto the poor planning by Richmond on the roads.
The low skilled wages haven't kept up with what is being proposed... that's going to force more traffic onto a 2 lane road we call Route 11. It could be some college kids mom and dad that don't have an EZpass, a local, etc. No one likes traffic, and traffic in the valley is when you have 3 people in front of you at a traffic light. "oh many its crowded out here."
Scotty is right, that if you toll the trucks, it will make its way to the consumer. My buddies that run breweries are already talking about it. BUT if you make it pass through more layers, there is more easing the pass down.
Here is a 12 year old study... where they admit they know the trucks are the problem.
http://www.virginiadot.org/news/resources/I-81_FAQs_June2007.pdf
in 2007, the law only allowed for the tolling of trucks... nothing happened. increasing the issues on the roadway. now they have changed the law to tax more people (cars)... before the made a decision on how to proceed with the road... 12 years have passed. They are really good at finding money, they are really good at spending money... they are terrible at making effective change in a timely manner.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 01-10-2019
Well and not only that, but I'd say that a toll hurts the blue collar worker less than a fuel tax. The first proposal was a regional fuel tax which absolutely would have disproportionately impacted the lower income folks, whereas here you pay your 30 dollars (just a single carton of cigs, y'all) and then you can drive all you want on 81 all year.
I don't like it but I like it better than my gas being a nickel more a gallon until the end of fucking time.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - Ken - 01-10-2019
(01-10-2019, 12:46 PM)CaptainHenreh Wrote: Well and not only that, but I'd say that a toll hurts the blue collar worker less than a fuel tax. The first proposal was a regional fuel tax which absolutely would have disproportionately impacted the lower income folks, whereas here you pay your 30 dollars (just a single carton of cigs, y'all) and then you can drive all you want on 81 all year.
I don't like it but I like it better than my gas being a nickel more a gallon until the end of fucking time.
Agreed.
As mentioned before, assuming an EZ-Pass like system, you could allow for regions to apply for a lower cost basis toll. That could help.
Couldn't they also, after some public pressure, write into the law/legislation that the toll money is only to be specifically used for I81 improvements - or some other limiting factor?
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 01-10-2019
(01-10-2019, 12:56 PM)Ken Wrote: Couldn't they also, after some public pressure, write into the law/legislation that the toll money is only to be specifically used for I81 improvements - or some other limiting factor?
It took stacking dead bodies to get them this far...no chance of turning the tap off once it's on.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - JPolen01 - 01-10-2019
I don't see how $30 a year is a bank breaker. We're talking $2.50 a month. I would have gladly paid $30 a year if it alleviated traffic on my drives to and from JMU. 81 is a shit show.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - ScottyB - 01-10-2019
Kaan Wrote:BUT philosophically Rex is right (the lesser of two evils is the toll)
CaptainHenreh Wrote:I don't like it but I like it better than my gas being a nickel more a gallon until the end of fucking time.
yes - in case i wasn't clear, emotionally the toll pisses me off from a mismanagement and abuse standpoint. but 100% agreed that if you HAVE to get ramrodded by the suits on this issue, the toll is much less impactful financially.
your average everyman Shenandoah/Roanoke valley'er probably drives a pickemup truck that averages maybe 15mpg combined. you'd surpass the toll with gas tax on running that truck 40-50 miles a day in no time.
----
on a side note, i LOVE blasting through Christiansburg between Roanoke and VT so much almost entirely because of the 3 lanes. its amazing how much time you can make up when you can get around the elephant racing.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - Jewels - 01-10-2019
(01-10-2019, 01:15 PM)ScottyB Wrote:I'm with you on the 3 lanes between Roanoke and Christiansburg. When I commuted to Radford 3 days a week from H'burg it was the best part of my drive. I would totally pay $30 a year to drive toll free on I81. I mean, I use I 81 to go to the gym and back to work. My work is right off the interstate (I can see the interstate from my desk) and I cannot begin to tell you how many times the interstate is stopped because of an accident. I mean....its a fucking joke...a fucking ridiculous joke... Also, trucking companies are a shit show. Mismanaged and even though they pay well, they attract some of the most useless souls out there.Kaan Wrote:BUT philosophically Rex is right (the lesser of two evils is the toll)
CaptainHenreh Wrote:I don't like it but I like it better than my gas being a nickel more a gallon until the end of fucking time.
yes - in case i wasn't clear, emotionally the toll pisses me off from a mismanagement and abuse standpoint. but 100% agreed that if you HAVE to get ramrodded by the suits on this issue, the toll is much less impactful financially.
your average everyman Shenandoah/Roanoke valley'er probably drives a pickemup truck that averages maybe 15mpg combined. you'd surpass the toll with gas tax on running that truck 40-50 miles a day in no time.
----
on a side note, i LOVE blasting through Christiansburg between Roanoke and VT so much almost entirely because of the 3 lanes. its amazing how much time you can make up when you can get around the elephant racing.