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+--- Thread: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. (/showthread.php?tid=8972)
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Jake - 07-27-2010
The 914 definitely falls into the "slow car fast" category. And you sir, were not driving. You were motoring.
Joey and I are thinking along the same lines. I drove my uncle's truck when I only had my permit. It's a legit truck and it's his DD. It's a 1956ish Chevy. Manual everything, including the brakes. I certainly wouldn't want one as a DD (he's an artist so it fits him, I guess) but it made me appreciate how everything has evolved. And it's damn cool. Driving it then was terrifying... I'm sure I would be slightly more confident now - but only slightly.
I think what we're all getting at, to some extent, is that we collectively wish the American population gave more of a shit about driving.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - SlimKlim - 07-27-2010
^Yep. I know this has changed significantly from a discussion of manuals and their alternatives, but it just falls into the same lines for me.
Its the one thing you can put into a new car and still give you a bit of an appreciation for what you drive. Paddles will just never do that for me I'm afraid to say. There is an X factor, a level of enjoyment I will always get out of driving with both feet, and I don't think that will ever change.
I appreciate manual alternatives for their technology and capabilities, and I really do like driving ken's car (only extended experience really), but I wouldn't want to own one as my only option. Rooming with someone that owns one gives me pretty much just the right dosage. :-)
I have driven some E46 M3 SMGs, I dont know if they were just worn out or really that crappy, but got they sucked.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - HAULN-SS - 07-28-2010
your truck story reminded me of my first truck. 69 C10 with no power anything and 3 on the tree. Talk about a damn handful that thing was. Mom made me sell it for something safer.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - D_Eclipse9916 - 07-28-2010
SlimKlim Wrote:The M3 has no traction control and has been freaky at times, but it doesn't compare to the 100% all the time work it takes to drive one of those old things.
Lol proving the point, you think a car without traction control can be freaky, 99% of the alumni started with cars without any sort of traction control, and I think its actually MORE freaky to be in a car with it. Point im making is the newer cars its not a bad thing, its the generations perspective on what they control.
Personally I love ABS/Power Steering/Power Brakes, but feel like im out of control with traction control on (legit, it has its own mind that I cant control and does things I wouldnt do). But if you look at the options, thats my generation. You go only 5-10 years back from mine, and people go wtf I dont like ABS and power steering, "ABS does its own thing that I cant control". We will hate the day when cars or the equivalent just do it on their own without us controlling it, but the new generation will consider it a necessity, and "freaky" without it.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - SlimKlim - 07-28-2010
You're reading into what I said to much. A few times in snow and pouring rain the car has stepped out and spooked me some. I was using it as a comparison to say, yeah my car lacks this, but its still nothing in comparison to an old manual everything.
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - BLINGMW - 07-28-2010
SlimKlim Wrote:stuff about 914
True story, having driven a 914 around on the parkway, I'm right there with you. Older cars are more fun the drive, and the transmission is part of that. I enjoy my manual transmission every day and do all I can to keep autos out of my house. The only complaints you'll hear from me in traffic are "damn this traffic, burning up my clutch". My left leg isn't the one complaining. I never ever ever prefer an auto.
I just also have to be realistic! They're going away. I was thinking about the same thing you mentioned though last night. If we really want to "save the manuals", complaining isn't going to do it, neither is writing your congressman. Has anyone done a study to see if teen accident rates are affected by transmission type? If we could show that manual transmissions save lives (maybe they don't), and parents understood that, then maybe they'd want to buy manual trans cars for their kids. :dunno: Just a thought.
Apoc Wrote:I agree. Well, not with getting a CDL, but driver training SHOULD include driving the biggest, loaded down box truck you can rent. Those are scary enough. And you find out that all yellow lights aren't long enough. And yes, also driving like a MG or 914 or something. Both vehicles that take closer to 100% of your attention. I can only say that when I educate my children, it will include such tasks. Maybe there's something we could do to encourage driver training programs to include this?Ryan T Wrote:Hell, make them all get CDLs too so they know what it's like to drive a 60,000lb truck with a 60' trailer...just so they know.Great idea. Maybe they'd think twice before cutting off that tractor trailer if they knew the flip side of the coin.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Evan - 07-28-2010
a bad left knee (and failed surgery that made it worse) makes driving stick much less fun for me
but yeah, after driving it in DC traffic for years, you really dont mind it, or even notice
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Sijray21 - 07-28-2010
I guess it's just a personal preference. I could drive a paddle-shifted slushbox, but I just prefer the clutch pedal and gear shift; it's just more fun. Not to mention if more people had to use both hands for driving it would limit their use of cell phones and other things that distract them from paying attention to their primary reason for operating the car...to drive. This is definitely directly affecting the driving experience IMHO. I don't think the choke is a good example of old technology that others prefer, but some do prefer the fuel delivery of carbs as opposed to FI. I guess I just prefer the older technology then.
I also strongly feel that it will be more costly in the long run for paddle-shifting transmissions as opposed to manual gearboxes. Additional complexity usually means additional costs when you perform repairs.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - terdcivic - 07-28-2010
Sijray21 Wrote:I also strongly feel that it will be more costly in the long run for paddle-shifting transmissions as opposed to manual gearboxes. Additional complexity usually means additional costs when you perform repairs.
^
Cars are so complicated now that when the whole "out of control" Toyota thing was going on they had no idea what the hell it was...later on in the investigation they thought it might be some code or shit in the drive-by wire/cruise control system. Wouldn't it be simple if the only thing that could go wrong is a bad floor mat, like they originally though?
I mean I'm all for innovation...give me a golf club that makes me think I don't suck so bad...give me faster computers and better looking TV's...but when it comes to things like my life, I want to completely understand what control I do and don't have. This is the same thing that freaks me out about fly-by-wire jets, even though there is no way around it anymore since all jets are fly-by wire. Power failure? Bye-bye!
Holy crap...I sound like an old fart
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - f2399CL - 07-29-2010
My 2 cents...
I live in NJ (outside Philadelphia). There is so much traffic here, and traffic lights at nearly every intersection. I commute to Philadelphia every day, in traffic. Yes, in traffic, having a manual can be kind of rough, but when I get the opportunity to punch the gas and go fast, being able to shift gears makes it worthwhile (for me, at least). My first 3 cars were automatics, and they were nice in traffic, but I didn't feel as connected to the road and to the car as i do now with a manual. Which meant that I could talk on the phone, text, beat my meat, whatever, because I felt that i was just driving, and not what Jake calls motoring. Another advantage of the manual for me is the added mpg. Getting 29mpg city (yes, I said 29) is pretty damn nice, and makes my wallet feel good.
But what really makes me sick about DSG/SMG/BBQ/LOL is that companies put them on cars that shouldn't have them. For instance. I was on cars.com looking at 911 Turbos (one of my favorite cars since I was 0 yrs old) and I saw a couple in automatic. My jaw dropped. Heart sank. Bowels released (not really). Porsche now offers the PDK (Porsche Doppelkupplung) in the 911s up to and including the Turbo S (thank God they don't offer it in the GT3/GT2). Call me old fashioned, but sports cars and fast cars, such as Porsches, should ONLY be offered in manual. Lambo and Ferrari should also offer stick again, because although the paddle shifters may be beneficial for a car of that caliber on track, 95% of people who buy them keep in in the garage and cruise down Miami Beach in it, not even bringing it to within a mile of a track. Sorry Paris Hilton, if you want one, you're gonna have to put your brain to work for once and learn how to drive a manual.
/rant.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Ryan T - 07-29-2010
f2399CL Wrote:Call me old fashioned, but sports cars and fast cars, such as Porsches, should ONLY be offered in manual. Lambo and Ferrari should also offer stick again, because although the paddle shifters may be beneficial for a car of that caliber on track, 95% of people who buy them keep in in the garage and cruise down Miami Beach in it, not even bringing it to within a mile of a track. Sorry Paris Hilton, if you want one, you're gonna have to put your brain to work for once and learn how to drive a manual.
/rant.
Your forgetting ,that same 95% of people that keep them in the garage and cruise down Miami Beach in them....don't want to wipe their own ass, let alone change gears. Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, etc are producing cars to appeal to the segment of the population that can afford them; and the vast majority of that population doesn't want to have to shift gears.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - WRXtranceformed - 07-29-2010
Ryan T Wrote:f2399CL Wrote:Call me old fashioned, but sports cars and fast cars, such as Porsches, should ONLY be offered in manual. Lambo and Ferrari should also offer stick again, because although the paddle shifters may be beneficial for a car of that caliber on track, 95% of people who buy them keep in in the garage and cruise down Miami Beach in it, not even bringing it to within a mile of a track. Sorry Paris Hilton, if you want one, you're gonna have to put your brain to work for once and learn how to drive a manual.
/rant.
Your forgetting ,that same 95% of people that keep them in the garage and cruise down Miami Beach in them....don't want to wipe their own ass, let alone change gears. Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, etc are producing cars to appeal to the segment of the population that can afford them; and the vast majority of that population doesn't want to have to shift gears.
Yep, it translates down from the highest end cars to the lowest level econoboxes. Car makers are producing what the public (who buy a lot of cars) wants, and that's probably going to ultimately lead to the demise of the MT.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - G.Irish - 07-29-2010
f2399CL Wrote:Call me old fashioned, but sports cars and fast cars, such as Porsches, should ONLY be offered in manual. Lambo and Ferrari should also offer stick again, because although the paddle shifters may be beneficial for a car of that caliber on track, 95% of people who buy them keep in in the garage and cruise down Miami Beach in it, not even bringing it to within a mile of a track. Sorry Paris Hilton, if you want one, you're gonna have to put your brain to work for once and learn how to drive a manual.That's a bit extreme. Transmissions like the F1-shift and E-Gear that Ferrari and Lamborghini use make it easier for people to drive the cars on the street without putting in a slushbox. It also makes those cars faster on a racetrack. In the case of Ferrari, their transmission is directly derived from the sequential manual transmissions they use in Formula 1.
Why wouldn't they put that on their street cars? "We have a more advanced transmission that is faster, makes misshifts impossible, and makes the car more accessible for a wider range of clientele but we would rather force everyone to use the manual transmission." If the CEO of Ferrari thought that way he would rightfully get kicked out by the shareholders.
All of this 'there should only be manuals' talk would be like saying anyone who uses a computer should only have the command line interface. All of this graphical user interface stuff is for idiots, you should have to learn all of the command line options and at least know how to use vim or emacs. Kids these days need to really know how a comptuer works. I'm sure some people could do fine that way but what would be the point? If someone wants to use the command line for everything, fine. But to say that should be the only option doesn't make sense.
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna do some statistics for work with my abacus.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - ScottyB - 07-29-2010
as it's been said before - nothing we as enthusiasts do as a response to more and more automatics matters unless we vote with our wallets. car makers are in the business of staying in business, and we're in the minority as manual-loving enthusiasts. That is the sad truth.
I take driving a manual really seriously, and I'm not afraid to be thought of as a nerd for saying it that way. It makes me so happy to shift well, execute perfect rev matches, dance on the peddles a bit and hear the engine crescendo down the rev range until the next heel-toe. I like to even throw in the odd double clutch downshift into first or second just to feel the shifter drop into the gate more effortlessly than normal. I have driven the VW DSG and Audi's tiptronic and felt they did their job for your average driver who wants some sporty driving pleasure. They are not a replacement in my eyes, though. I have not experienced the high end systems in Ferrari's or Porsches, but they cater to a different market and represent tech powerhouses to their respective brands, so there is a different sales dynamic at work there.
I DON'T think manuals will dissapear forever, but only for bona-fide performance cars. There are too many enthusiasts out there that love them and will make a business case for their existence. There are also far too many old cars on the road with manuals that will continue to have willing drivers who will need overhaul services and parts. I believe manuals are going to become an extra-cost option years from now. You may be able to buy a car "standard" with DSG but will pay +$1500 or something to have the manual fitted. Sort of the reverse of the past few decades where autos were higher technology. I think small cars and luxury vehicles will drop manuals entirely once technology cheapens enough.
What can be done?
ÔÇó Teach your kids. Kids born this decade will probably look at manuals as a curiosity when they are of driving age. As more people move to autos, less new drivers will be taught the old ways and manuals will become relics. If interest remains in the market, someone, somewhere, will know they can make money off of it and offer a solution.
ÔÇó Offer to tutor your friends in the way of the manual. They may have no idea how fun and rewarding it is if they've driven their whole lives with autos. It's also not easy to give it a try if it's not offered through someone they trust and feel safe with. A totally alien control system is intimidating and someone could feel very aprehensive and unsafe without a good mentor riding with them, and consequently give up.
ÔÇó P/R the hell out of it. If you carpool, show your buddies the good qualities - staying attentive, extra control, and don't forget to show those gas receipts and the good mileage you get.
ÔÇó Buying a new car? think of it as a vote too. You certainly have your reasons but keep in mind the numbers are all the bean counters are interested in.
ÔÇó Enjoy it while it lasts. :thumbup:
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Jake - 07-29-2010
G.Irish Wrote:All of this 'there should only be manuals' talk would be like saying anyone who uses a computer should only have the command line interface. All of this graphical user interface stuff is for idiots, you should have to learn all of the command line options and at least know how to use vim or emacs. Kids these days need to really know how a comptuer works. I'm sure some people could do fine that way but what would be the point? If someone wants to use the command line for everything, fine. But to say that should be the only option doesn't make sense.
This is a good 'compromise' example. I do some web design here and there, and my roommate does it professionally. We both are die-hard hand-code people who really dislike using GUI editors like Dreamweaver. The GUI editors take longer to get what you want accomplished and don't always read your brain right and do as you like. Sound like an automatic trans much?
For the majority of people throwing together a quick website, the regular ol' Dreamweaver/iWeb/whatever program will work fine and do the job. For those who care more, hand-coding (manual trans) and other specialized apps (DSG, SST) do a better and more precise job.
Now I'm legitimately going back to hand-coding at work because one of our bloggers pastes in HTML output from Word and it's a total cluster.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Apoc - 07-29-2010
Reading an article about the new Kindle, I realize I am on the other side of the technology argument there. The new e-readers really do serve the same purpose and functionality as paper books and I laugh at those that say they "just like the feel of the pages." I feel most of their attitude is sentimental and they prefer the old way because it's just what they're used to.
There is some of that in this topic, but I think the underlying problem is we're stuck in an in-between world right now. We have seen less than perfect implementations of DSGs, so those of us that resist them are using that as their "speak from experience." If they really could meet all the same needs... and I don't think simply having a third pedal is a need any of us have... then people would be more receptive.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - Maengelito - 07-29-2010
Its been brought up several times before in here; yes, sequential/paddle/manumatic/whatever shifters are technologically advanced, make driving a little bit simpler and its also faster. There's no reason to even keep manuals around. However, its pretty simple explanation as to why they're still around.
People love cars.
Its a feeling that most of us have (or had at one point) in this club which is what lured us here. We love the control, the feedback, the experience of driving a car that was considered "sporty" in our day. It invokes a "feeling" that isn't the same in automatics. While it may not be logical to choose a manual over an automatic that is technologically superior in every way, we choose it because we want it whether we can justify it logically or not.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - fiveoh2go - 07-29-2010
Maengelito Wrote:Its been brought up several times before in here; yes, sequential/paddle/manumatic/whatever shifters are technologically advanced, make driving a little bit simpler and its also faster. There's no reason to even keep manuals around. However, its pretty simple explanation as to why they're still around.This ^
People love cars.
Its a feeling that most of us have (or had at one point) in this club which is what lured us here. We love the control, the feedback, the experience of driving a car that was considered "sporty" in our day. It invokes a "feeling" that isn't the same in automatics. While it may not be logical to choose a manual over an automatic that is technologically superior in every way, we choose it because we want it whether we can justify it logically or not.
/thread.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - SlimKlim - 07-29-2010
Maengelito Wrote:Its been brought up several times before in here; yes, sequential/paddle/manumatic/whatever shifters are technologically advanced, make driving a little bit simpler and its also faster. There's no reason to even keep manuals around. However, its pretty simple explanation as to why they're still around.
People love cars.
Its a feeling that most of us have (or had at one point) in this club which is what lured us here. We love the control, the feedback, the experience of driving a car that was considered "sporty" in our day. It invokes a "feeling" that isn't the same in automatics. While it may not be logical to choose a manual over an automatic that is technologically superior in every way, we choose it because we want it whether we can justify it logically or not.
This is the best bit of prose in the English language. It pretty much sums up my entire existence. Can we start a subforum for Maeng only, and the rest of us can just bask in the brilliance?
Seriously though, insanely well put, this pretty much phrases my argument perfectly.
Re: Please, do your part. Save the Manuals. - BLINGMW - 07-30-2010
Wait a damn second. Maeng? Really? Goddamit. Fine, make it a sticky. :bootyshake: