+- Madison Motorsports (https://forum.mmsports.org)
+-- Forum: Madison Motorsports (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Lounge (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Thread: Repubs and evolution (/showthread.php?tid=6046)
- Sijray21 - 06-12-2007
Evan Wrote:2.Theistic evolution, in which the earth is 4.5 billion years old, man evolved over millions of years and God had a hand in it.
odd you bring this up, since i've heard very few people actually mention it. i actually considered my self this through college as i veered away from the roman catholic church.
Regarding Jack's post:
I think that evolution is true and i think that if you don't believe in it then you have your right - i would not consider someone foolish to think in that manner. Faith is a factor in many lives that gives a person the ability in their own mind to be successful - it gives them strength. I think that strength could help an individual become a great contributor to society and provide to be a great leader. Becoming a political leader doesn't mean that you have to know all that is true - you just have to help society better itself by keeping an open mind. By open, i mean, awknowledging that it could be true and that they/you/whoever could be wrong. Unless a person has done all the studying themselves, experienced it all, can they say that everything is 'true'. If they have not then they are taking all the reports and previous study in faith. I for one believe most scientists, but they could be wrong. I believe in evolution, but i strongly feel that there is more to it than just that. I'm not a republican, nor am i a democrat, but most of my views are conservative.
- CaptainHenreh - 06-12-2007
JackoliciousLegs Wrote:Hey, wait a second. Re-read everything. I used the WBC to show a group that agreed with the bible wholeheartedly that I *COULD NOT* argue with...
Dude, you implied that the WBC was somehow a representative section of some, fuck, ANY group involved in this little "poll".
And besides, you can argue with them. The WBC is not following the most basic tenets of Christianity, namely: "Love God with all that you have, and love others as yourself." Now, they might twist and turn some passage to suit their own twisted purpose, but the truth is that they don't represent Christianity OR Christ.
So let's not pretend they do, ok?
- ScottyB - 06-12-2007
Sijray21 Wrote:I think that strength could help an individual become a great contributor to society and provide to be a great leader. Becoming a political leader doesn't mean that you have to know all that is true - you just have to help society better itself by keeping an open mind.
more good words :thumbup:
- JackoliciousLegs - 06-13-2007
ScottyB Wrote:+1Sijray21 Wrote:I think that strength could help an individual become a great contributor to society and provide to be a great leader. Becoming a political leader doesn't mean that you have to know all that is true - you just have to help society better itself by keeping an open mind.more good words :thumbup:
CaptainHenreh Wrote:Dude, you implied that the WBC was somehow a representative section of some, fuck, ANY group involved in this little "poll".I'm not for one second going to defend those crazies. What I will say is that when they say, god hates fags, everyone is all up in arms. When we say gays can't serve openly in the military, gays can't have civil unions, etc... they are still being discriminated against. Do you see what I'm saying? I know that you want to distance Christianity as a whole from that group of nutjobs, but my argument is simply that those people are still Christians. They still "believe in the bible" and believe that what they're doing is right because the bible says so. You can't argue with that. Or that. Or that. Or that. Hell, lets throw some Koran in there too.
And besides, you can argue with them. The WBC is not following the most basic tenets of Christianity, namely: "Love God with all that you have, and love others as yourself." Now, they might twist and turn some passage to suit their own twisted purpose, but the truth is that they don't represent Christianity OR Christ.
So let's not pretend they do, ok?
On the flip side, I know lots of people that do great good with religion in the backs of their minds. When I lived in Africa most of my friends were missionaries and we got along just fine. I was in Young Life with them. I went to bible studies... etc. I grew intolerant of certain practices though. My friend Andrew's family was really great. His dad was an agricultural biologist and mom was a nurse. They helped *anywhere* they could. Clinics, free farming consults, workshops etc. Then, they said, hey, there's this great thing in my life and if you want to hear about it, it's at ___. That's just fine in my eyes. I had another friend the year after who's family did it the other way around. Come to the bible study and we'll talk about how we can help you. This doesn't have much to do with the argument at hand as a whole, except that this is an example of what good can come of religion.
**** OFF TOPIC ****
Another side note, I cringe every time I'm in the airport and I see a group of people with the same shirts on saying "Ecuador 07" and some bible verse on the back. I know they're going to build a church and preach. I just can't help but think to myself, if only they used that money to do real good, like build houses. Provide some food. Set up some microeconomic system. I don't know. I guess that irritates me the same way as an incident that happened at Displace Me this year. First off, an incredible event overall. There were TONS of church groups which was wonderful (again, good things from religion). I enjoyed talking with all of them (I helped organize the Chicago event). What really irritated me is that one guy and his church group got a loudspeaker and started walking through the crowd in the evening (it was an overnight event) and preaching. Nothing too bad... I *almost* let it slide. Then he said "I'd rather 'save' 1 child in Uganda than feed 100." I took him aside and had to tell him that it was a non-denominational event. I was curteous. But man, that burned me.
Everyone can defend Christianity/western religion and say lots of good comes out of it. Yes, it does. I'll concede that and leave that argument for another day.
***** End off topic about good and bad out of religion *****
Edit... and what I'd really love out of this is a Christian to come out and be like I'm a Christian because of this, this, this, and this. I go to church because of this. I vote this way or that because of this. I don't believe in evolution because of this. Gays should not be able to share in everything straight people can do. Using zygotes that are trash bound for medical purposes is bad because this. Christianity is what I believe because. I don't believe Islam or Judaism because.
- JackoliciousLegs - 06-13-2007
Oh, and Evan, I'm actually going to a book discussion about Sam Harris' End of Faith tomorrow night. It's an interesting read. Less abrasive than Dawkins and more cohesive. I wouldn't read Letter to a Christian Nation. It's just more of what was in EoF.
- CaptainHenreh - 06-13-2007
JackoliciousLegs Wrote:Edit... and what I'd really love out of this is a Christian to come out and be like I'm a Christian because of this, this, this, and this. I go to church because of this. I vote this way or that because of this. I don't believe in evolution because of this. Gays should not be able to share in everything straight people can do. Using zygotes that are trash bound for medical purposes is bad because this. Christianity is what I believe because. I don't believe Islam or Judaism because.
*sigh* Jack, jack, jack. Even your language here already puts people in a box. "Zygotes that are trashbound," "Gays should not be able to share in everything straight people can do," "I don't believe in evolution" (again with the "Believe in X" like it's a religion or something).
But, here goes, let's see if I can break your box.
#1: I'm a Christian for personal reasons that are none of anyone's business. However, I do believe that there is a (singular) God; I do believe that this God both is able to have a personal relationship with us and is capable of doing so; and I do believe that mankind is inherently flawed (perhaps by design) and are engaged in a constant struggle with our own selfish natures...but that by God's grace we are able to overcome that. That's not all I believe, but religion is pretty personal to me, I'm not one to wear it on my sleeve.
#2: I vote by looking at all of the factors in a situation and attempting to foresee outcomes of a particular vote. I do not necessarily vote for any measure or candidate that best suits my own personal needs (though that often is the case) but rather what I think will do best for this country and it's citizens.
#3: Evolution. I don't "believe in" evolution any more or less than I "believe in" gravity. It is a way to explain observations we have made about how the universe works. Now, do I believe that, for reasons all it's own, the universe brought about life from non-life? Complex organisms from complex proteins, complex proteins from atoms, atoms from primordial cosmic soup, primordial cosmic soup from a singularity a billion billion years ago? Ehh...Need more evidence. But even so, none of this precludes the existence of God, nor does it preclude his influence in the entire process, from beginning to eventual end. Yet, this is too often, I feel, used by evangelical atheists to "prove" the non-existence of God and has brought about rampant and venomous opposition from any kind of deist. It's not the theory, it's how some people extrapolate from it.
#4: I do not care what homosexuals do. It is none of my business. In regards to marriage (one of the things I think you were getting at) I think that marriage is a religious institution, and that the government should for the most part, keep it's nose out of regulating religion. In regards to them serving openly in the military, well...Don't Ask, Don't Tell is for a homosexual's own protection. You don't believe that, hang out with some drunk marines one night. Fuck, hang out with some sober ones. Someone openly gay would get their ass kicked a dozen times. Those are the only two things I can think of that gay people can't do that straight people can. Anything else, you'll have to be less vague.
#5: Though this was a loaded question, I do not have a problem using stem cells harvested from "zygotes" that were headed to the trash. I have a problem with the why these "zygotes" were trashbound in the first place.
I do not want to create a market for trashbound zygotes. I do not know why this is so difficult to understand.
Finally, your last point. Again, my religion is personal, and I don't like to wear it on my sleeve. My reasons for choosing my own flavor of Christianity over Islam, Judaism, Shintoism, Zoroastrianism, Wicca, Buddhism, Voodoo, Atheism (although really only the agnostics are really being honest with themselves), Discordianism or FSMism are my own. I'm not here to convert anyone, and I'm not sure how it's relevant to the discussion.
Whew! Heady talk so early in the morning.
- Maengelito - 06-13-2007
well said rex. while my religious beliefs may not coincide with yours 100%, i feel like much of what religion (whether its christianity, islam, judaism, hindu, etc.) preaches overall is acceptance and love for one another. religion was never intended to be a strict set of rules to make everyone's lives miserable, but came to be as a moral code of conduct. its in the specifics where things get dicey.
CaptainHenreh Wrote:Finally, your last point. Again, my religion is personal, and I don't like to wear it on my sleeve. My reasons for choosing my own flavor of Christianity over Islam, Judaism, Shintoism, Zoroastrianism, Wicca, Buddhism, Voodoo, Atheism (although really only the agnostics are really being honest with themselves), Discordianism or FSMism are my own. I'm not here to convert anyone, and I'm not sure how it's relevant to the discussion.
rex, come to the temple of boost. surrender to teh b00st!
- CaptainHenreh - 06-13-2007
Maengelito Wrote:rex, come to the temple of boost. surrender to teh b00st!
That's it! I'm a B00stafarian!
- ScottyB - 06-13-2007
CaptainHenreh Wrote:Maengelito Wrote:rex, come to the temple of boost. surrender to teh b00st!
That's it! I'm a B00stafarian!
bow your heads gentlemen.
The Turbo Is my Shepherd,
I Shall Not Want.
It maketh me burnout on black pavements,
It leadeth me beside busy freeways.
It restoreth my soul.
It leads me in the path of quickness,
For its name's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of rice,
I shall fear no V8, for b00st art with me.
Thy rod and Thy piston, they comfort me.
Thou preparest a track before me.
In the presence of mine enemies,
Thou hast anointed my bearings with oil.
My car overpowers.
Surely traction and victory shall follow me
all the days of my life.
And I shall dwell in the house of the Turbo forever.
Amen.
edit: ^ not my work
- Jeff - 06-13-2007
ScottyB Wrote:CaptainHenreh Wrote:Maengelito Wrote:rex, come to the temple of boost. surrender to teh b00st!
That's it! I'm a B00stafarian!
bow your heads gentlemen.
The Turbo Is my Shepherd,
I Shall Not Want.
It maketh me burnout on black pavements,
It leadeth me beside busy freeways.
It restoreth my soul.
It leads me in the path of quickness,
For its name's sake.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of rice,
I shall fear no V8, for b00st art with me.
Thy rod and Thy piston, they comfort me.
Thou preparest a track before me.
In the presence of mine enemies,
Thou hast anointed my bearings with oil.
My car overpowers.
Surely traction and victory shall follow me
all the days of my life.
And I shall dwell in the house of the Turbo forever.
Amen.
OMG...its all over...Scotty > me...anyone...period.
- ScottyB - 06-13-2007
can't take credit for it, except editing out "V8" and replacing it with "turbo" and "boost" :lol:
- Jeff - 06-13-2007
GOD HATES PLAGIARISTS
- .RJ - 06-13-2007
Fuck boost.
- BLINGMW - 06-13-2007
That's really kind of unfair. I mean, he created everything, so he's immune to plagiarism. :| How can we satisfy this god!!!!?!?!!?!!
- JackoliciousLegs - 06-13-2007
First off, I know that religion is an immensely personal topic. I appreciate the fact that you've gone out on a limb and talked about yours.
CaptainHenreh Wrote:#2: I vote by looking at all of the factorsbecause you are a smart guy... not patronizing you. I'm being serious.
CaptainHenreh Wrote:none of this precludes the existence of GodI think you should also read End of Faith. What I wouldn't do to have you in the book club
CaptainHenreh Wrote:I do not care what homosexuals do. It is none of my business. In regards to marriage (one of the things I think you were getting at) I think that marriage is a religious institution, and that the government should for the most part, keep it's nose out of regulating religion.I know you don't care, but what if they want equal protection under the law? Don't ask don't tell is one thing. How does the US military get along with the Brits? They have openly serving gays. I wouldn't be the first to blab out about being gay in the marines, but then again, I'm a pussy, and I would almost never join the marines. I'm not tough enough.
CaptainHenreh Wrote:I do not have a problem using stem cells harvested from "zygotes" that were headed to the trash. I have a problem with the why these "zygotes" were trashbound in the first place.Abortion is one issue we shouldn't get into (here at least). I'm talking about waste from fertility clinics. Non-abortion related. Eggs. Spermies. Research. We can't do it legally. That is what I meant.
CaptainHenreh Wrote:I'm not here to convert anyoneAnd that's why I don't have much of a problem with that. I know you're not converting anyone, but where do you get your moral set? How did you decide that unfertilized eggs can't be used for research? How did you decide that gays can't get married if they want? What if it's in their religion? What if they're tough enough to want their friends to know that they're gay? Should they be reprimanded? Discharged?
Maengelito Wrote:i feel like much of what religion (whether its christianity, islam, judaism, hindu, etc.) preaches overall is acceptance and love for one another. religion was never intended to be a strict set of rules to make everyone's lives miserable, but came to be as a moral code of conduct. its in the specifics where things get dicey.
JackoliciousLegs Wrote:You can't argue with that. Or that. Or that. Or that. Hell, lets throw some Koran in there too.I disagree here. There are some religions that teach tolerance. Examples. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are not them though. I'm truly sorry if I offend anyone here. There's just too much hate speech in the old testament alone. I look at the Torah and feel somewhat sickened. I'm just comforted by the fact that Israel mostly socially liberal and is continuing on that path. I understand that a lot of people practice these torah based religions under the premise that they're doing mostly good and using it as a moral guide. I challenge that and think that we can do better.
- CaptainHenreh - 06-13-2007
JackoliciousLegs Wrote:Abortion is one issue we shouldn't get into (here at least). I'm talking about waste from fertility clinics. Non-abortion related. Eggs. Spermies. Research. We can't do it legally. That is what I meant.
I answered your question. We don't want to create a market for trashbound zygotes. The truth of the matter is that no one can say with any certainty when life begins, which is central to the whole thing. Saying that life begins at birth is silly, but there's no fine line between person and multicellular structure. We can't *not* get into abortion when you're talking about this because it's the same debate, the same question. There's also the "slippery slope" angle. When you start harvesting fertility clinic castoffs, what next?
- KPWSerpiente - 06-13-2007
So I don't want to step into Jack's war against the faithful but I've got a serious question.
Does anyone believe that an all powerfull God could have created a world that is x billion years old while at the same time having only existed for 6000 or so years?
-T
- JackoliciousLegs - 06-13-2007
I think we're done...
![[Image: Beat_Dead_HorseSanitysBlog.jpg]](http://i69.photobucket.com/albums/i60/munchkin_2/Beat_Dead_HorseSanitysBlog.jpg)
- Ginger - 06-13-2007
KPWSerpiente Wrote:So I don't want to step into Jack's war against the faithful but I've got a serious question.
Does anyone believe that an all powerfull God could have created a world that is x billion years old while at the same time having only existed for 6000 or so years?
-T
What basis is there for His existance only being for 6,000 years? If a tree falls in the forest and no one's around to hear it, does it make a sound?
- Jeff - 06-13-2007
Doesn't the bible date the world's existance to 6k years? isn't that where it comes from?