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+--- Thread: SMG or no? (/showthread.php?tid=5167)
- PGK - 12-11-2006
.RJ Wrote:In a car, a straight cut sequential really isnt going to be viable on the street.
Why not?
- Evan - 12-11-2006
G.Irish Wrote:lol....."supercars" rarely see the trackApoc Wrote:So to clarify... is the poll with respect to DD?With respect to supercars. So in the context of a very high performance vehicle that would see significant track time.
edit: Chris beat me to it. im all behind
- Evan - 12-11-2006
PGK Wrote:do you value your hearing?.RJ Wrote:In a car, a straight cut sequential really isnt going to be viable on the street.
Why not?
- .RJ - 12-11-2006
PGK Wrote:Why not?
Loud, clunky, and they aint going to last 100,000 miles.
- Ginger - 12-11-2006
Apoc Wrote:asteele2 Wrote:you can use them both at the same time in normal operation if you want.
That's called heel/toe and all the (fast) racers do it faster than you can stick mashed potatoes to RJ's wall. Most of the gain is because humans can't match revs for downshift as well as computers can. No matter how much awesomeness you have, a computer will always beat you on speed and efficiently in the long run. I don't think any amount of redesign will make a difference because it's pretty much impossible to engineer out the imperfection of humans as long as they have input that matters.
But precise downshifting occurs while doing a different action - braking. How does reducing the time that you spend doing two things (when the braking action takes longer, anyways) reduce overall laptimes?
Case in point - there's a video floating around the intArw3b that details two laps, one by Rubens Barichello, one by FastManMikey (if I remember the right drivers). The better driver had almost no time between braking and accelerating - he was using his left foot on the brake and his right foot on the gas. You could see the slower driver, who was braking and accelerating with his right foot, losing time in the sections where the those techniques were were different. He was losing places elsewhere, too, but that's just an example.
Another example I learned about during the visit to Ferrari. The Challenge cars use the SMG gearboxes and there was one already very quick driver... he couldn't get his head around using his left foot for the brake and keeping his right poised over the gas. They safety wired his left foot to the brake of a slushbox rental car and once he got used to doing so, his laptimes dropped.
I understand that the SMG systems adds complication with the computer and pump... and also that a sequential box isn't viable on the street for cars. I'm addressing track only stuff at this point really.
Given that the real benefits of the clutchless manual come from eliminating the third pedal why not just design a different control system? Yes, quicker shifts matter, but making shifts fast is easier and cheaper to address when that's all the system has to do (eg - remove special computer operation of rams, and blipping, etc. etc.).
- .RJ - 12-11-2006
There are a lot of fast drivers that dont heel toe, or Left foot brake. There are a lot of slow drivers that do. Whats your point? They're just tools to have available to you that should make you faster but ultimately its how you use it. If ferrari boi was able to drop his laptimes significantly just by braking with the other foot then he was doing something fundamentally wrong in the first place.
The point of SMG and such on BMW's is to swing their technowankery around and sell cars. Thats about it. Its neat technology but it doesnt necessarily make the car faster or more reliable or more durable.
- G.Irish - 12-11-2006
Hmm, per Andrew's idea, why not put the clutch on the left side of the steering wheel? That way you could left foot brake and blip the throttle with your right foot on downshifts.
- Evan - 12-11-2006
you still dont "get it" andrew. it doesnt have to do with laptimes. SMG is faster, there is no questioning that. More time on the throttle, and more consistency/less fatigue in a long race.
But its not as fun. and yeah, thats subjective, so if pushing buttons to shift while you hold your latte in the other hand is more fun, then the SMG is a better choice. But there are those of us, lots of us, who find it fun to shift yourself, match revs, downshift etc. This is a street car we are talking about
- G.Irish - 12-11-2006
.RJ Wrote:If ferrari boi was able to drop his laptimes significantly just by braking with the other foot then he was doing something fundamentally wrong in the first place.Well one of the reasons der Schumacher himself was faster than Barrichello was because he left foot brakes and Rubinho doesn't. Probably has a little to do with why Button is faster than Rubinho too.
- Evan - 12-11-2006
G.Irish Wrote:Hmm, per Andrew's idea, why not put the clutch on the left side of the steering wheel? That way you could left foot brake and blip the throttle with your right foot on downshifts.ever try to hand pump a hydraulic clutch? :lol:
why not just shift without the clutch if you want to do that. not too hard with practice
- .RJ - 12-11-2006
G.Irish Wrote:Well one of the reasons der Schumacher himself was faster than Barrichello was because he left foot brakes and Rubinho doesn't. Probably has a little to do with why Button is faster than Rubinho too.
One out of how many reasons?
The Chin did everything better than r00benz... even if r00benz could get his head wrapped around how to LFB I dont think it would have changed the finishing order.
- Evan - 12-11-2006
G.Irish Wrote:schumacher would also be faster right foot braking.......RJ Wrote:If ferrari boi was able to drop his laptimes significantly just by braking with the other foot then he was doing something fundamentally wrong in the first place.Well one of the reasons der Schumacher himself was faster than Barrichello was because he left foot brakes and Rubinho doesn't. Probably has a little to do with why Button is faster than Rubinho too.
- G.Irish - 12-11-2006
Evan Wrote:Well my hand gets enough of a workout that...nevermind :lol:G.Irish Wrote:Hmm, per Andrew's idea, why not put the clutch on the left side of the steering wheel? That way you could left foot brake and blip the throttle with your right foot on downshifts.ever try to hand pump a hydraulic clutch? :lol:
why not just shift without the clutch if you want to do that. not too hard with practice
Yeah it'd have to have some serious hydraulic advantage to be able to work without having eagle talon hand strength to operate it.
- .RJ - 12-11-2006
Evan Wrote:ever try to hand pump a hydraulic clutch? :lol:
Yeah, I do it every time I ride the bike - point?
- Evan - 12-11-2006
:roll:
we are talking about cars donkey, not little 2 wheel toys with a clutch smaller than my fist
- .RJ - 12-11-2006
I was making the point that a hand clutch is not out of the question.
You can get tiny little triple-disc clutches that are smaller than what you see on most bikes.
- Evan - 12-11-2006
and the clamping force is still radically different
bike != car
but go ahead and give it a shot and let me know how that one works out for you
- .RJ - 12-11-2006
Evan Wrote:and the clamping force is still radically different
bike != car
Do you need less clamping force at 12,000 rpm pushing 200+ hp than a car?
I really dont know the answer, so yes that is a question.
- Ginger - 12-11-2006
Evan Wrote:you still dont "get it" andrew. it doesnt have to do with laptimes. SMG is faster, there is no questioning that. More time on the throttle, and more consistency/less fatigue in a long race.
What am I not getting? I already said that I'm addressing a street car.
And my point is that I think the gains that can be reaped from SMG can be had by redesigning the control system of a more simple transmission setup. Why use a $5,000 option when you can use the same old thing and just make the controls different?
- .RJ - 12-11-2006
Your argument is that removing the clutch pedal is the benefit from the SMG system.
If you use the same shift-it-yourself system are you going to use a handclutch? What if you are trailbraking into a turn in the middle of a pack of cars in a race? Will it still work well then?