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+-- Forum: Technical (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Technical Discussion (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=11)
+--- Thread: Springrates w/stock yellow's (/showthread.php?tid=2769)
- damnit458 - 09-08-2005
Well, as always, I get off at night with more things to think about than when I got on lol. A lot to look into, but I enjoy it...Ive learned a lot more looking into most options than before. Thanks for the input =D
- Evan - 09-08-2005
Mike Wrote:keith, fuck an integra brake setup. get the 11" fastbrakes kit and forget the rears for now. as long as your drums function, they're doing all they'll do.yikes.
dont listen to mike.
rear brakes (and more specifically brake bias) make a big difference in stopping distances, especially in a car setup to reduce weight transfer.
- Mike - 09-08-2005
yikes! don't listen to evan when it comes to cars he doesn't drive... he's just bitter that i owned him in the video thread.
your drums likely have more braking "power" than a disc setup. it's just an inherent part of their design.
i suppose you could listen to him if you wanted to, though.
- ScottyB - 09-08-2005
.RJ Wrote:I am doing it in the rear
giggle giggle
- Nick325is - 09-08-2005
My ride is not bad at all with the 450/650 GC setup I have now. I do have shortened and revalved konis though. Ground control sent them to me by accident instead of the regular Konis so no complaints there
I have also found the car to handle better with the 25mm front sway bar and no rear bar for now.Let me know if you want help with the install Keith.
Nick
- Mike - 09-08-2005
Nick325is Wrote:My ride is not bad at all with the 450/650 GC setup I have now. I do have shortened and revalved konis though. Ground control sent them to me by accident instead of the regular Konis so no complaints there
Let me know if you want help with the install Keith.
Nick
right, that front bar is correcting for some of that rear spring bias you have. for a rwd car that sounds like a pretty nice setup.
- Evan - 09-08-2005
Mike Wrote:yikes! don't listen to evan when it comes to cars he doesn't drive... he's just bitter that i owned him in the video thread.then riddle me this cap'n
your drums likely have more braking "power" than a disc setup. it's just an inherent part of their design.
i suppose you could listen to him if you wanted to, though.
-a car from the factory is set up with a lot of front brake bias
-going to a 11" front rotor will increase brake torque substantially, thereby moving the brake bias considerably (more) forward
-a track car with a race suspension will be lowered, thereby reducing the weight transfer to the front and allowing the rear to have more grip under braking.
even on a fwd shitpile that has all its weight hung over the front axle, you are still moving the brake bias way too forward, and thereby not utilizing the rear tires much at all under braking
So explain to me mikey how in your little universe this is a-ok and doesnt result in longer stopping distances
- .RJ - 09-08-2005
Evan Wrote:So explain to me mikey how in your little universe this is a-ok and doesnt result in longer stopping distances
Installing discs wont increase the amount of stopping power. You can still get just as much brake torque on drums with a good set of shoes.
Discs have plenty of advantages sure, but if you're looking at ultimate stopping distances, its not one of them.
Going to a bigger front brake setup, as long as the master cylinder and proportioning valve are properly sized will not change the brake bias what so ever.
Evan Wrote:-a track car with a race suspension will be lowered, thereby reducing the weight transfer to the front and allowing the rear to have more grip under braking.
You should know better than this - you cant reduce weight transfer. Its a function of weight distribution and Cg, and its always the same.
- Evan - 09-08-2005
.RJ Wrote:Thats my whole point, the master and prop valve are not being changed when you "just upgrade to 11" fastbrake setup" so you are in fact screwing up brake proportioning, moving your brake force to the front, and under utilizing the rear tires, resulting in longer stopping distances.Evan Wrote:So explain to me mikey how in your little universe this is a-ok and doesnt result in longer stopping distances
Installing discs wont increase the amount of stopping power. You can still get just as much brake torque on drums with a good set of shoes.
Discs have plenty of advantages sure, but if you're looking at ultimate stopping distances, its not one of them.
Going to a bigger front brake setup, as long as the master cylinder and proportioning valve are properly sized will not change the brake bias what so ever.
In fact I never said a word about a drum not providing ample brake torque. Its all about the proportioning, reading ownz j00r azz.
Evan Wrote:-a track car with a race suspension will be lowered, thereby reducing the weight transfer to the front and allowing the rear to have more grip under braking.
Quote:You should know better than this - you cant reduce weight transfer. Its a function of weight distribution and Cg, and its always the same.wrong-o RJ, a lowered car reduces Cg, and therefore weight transfer. You thought I was referring to increasing spring rates, but I wasnt. Again, reading ownz j00.
- .RJ - 09-08-2005
Evan Wrote:wrong-o RJ, a lowered car reduces Cg, and therefore weight transfer.
You cant reduce weight transfer. Your car weighs xxxx lbs, and you cant change that. You can manage it sure, but you cant make it go away.
- Mike - 09-08-2005
going to an 11" setup infers you swap the master and prop valve because if you don't... well your pedal will feel like poo-poo.
suppose i should have qualified this more for evan's nitpicking hatred:
11" front brakes + appropriate mc and prop valve + drums > stock fronts + rear discs
- Evan - 09-08-2005
.RJ Wrote:dubya tee eff mate, you are really reaching for something here, but im not sure what. Even that statement contradicts itself. You certainly can reduce it, but I didnt say you make it go away (you get a :?: for that one), but by lowering a car and lowering the Cg, you keep more of your weight on the rear tires under braking, and thus those tires are able to do more work. Its physics.Evan Wrote:wrong-o RJ, a lowered car reduces Cg, and therefore weight transfer.
You cant reduce weight transfer. Your car weighs xxxx lbs, and you cant change that. You can manage it sure, but you cant make it go away.
- .RJ - 09-08-2005
Unless you move the Cg reareward (or forward for that matter), you're not changing the way the weight transfer happens...
- Evan - 09-08-2005
the "way" it happens? that makes no sense.
Think of lowering the Cg as lowering the pivot or the fulcrum. The higher Cg is like a longer lever, thus moving the weight more for a given force input.
Lowering your Cg is shortening the lever, thus moving the weight around less for a given force input.
- .RJ - 09-08-2005
Right but the majority of the effect comes from moving that fulcrum front to rear.
- Beej - 09-12-2005
Mike Wrote:FWIW, the rear spring on an e30 is located like 2/3s of the distance from the trailing arm mounting location to the hub. So a 600lb rear spring is probably more like a 400-450ish. Which is totally a ballpark, but I'm not about to attempt the math.Nick325is Wrote:My ride is not bad at all with the 450/650 GC setup I have now. I do have shortened and revalved konis though. Ground control sent them to me by accident instead of the regular Konis so no complaints there
Let me know if you want help with the install Keith.
Nick
right, that front bar is correcting for some of that rear spring bias you have. for a rwd car that sounds like a pretty nice setup.
- Evan - 09-12-2005
yeah, thats called the wheel rate, which is how spring rates should be computed for each car.
This is why on a WRX, a 300lb spring feels stiffer than a 600 lb spring on a honda
- WRXRacer111 - 09-12-2005
BTW Evan... what rates did you have on your WRX? I'm running 450/560lb f/r on my car...
- mpg9999 - 09-12-2005
.RJ Wrote:Installing discs wont increase the amount of stopping power. You can still get just as much brake torque on drums with a good set of shoes.
Discs have plenty of advantages sure, but if you're looking at ultimate stopping distances, its not one of them.
Going to a bigger front brake setup, as long as the master cylinder and proportioning valve are properly sized will not change the brake bias what so ever.
Master cylinder has no affect on brake bias. Proportioning valves obviously do, but its fairly complex how they do because of the different step point and ratios.
.RJ Wrote:You should know better than this - you cant reduce weight transfer. Its a function of weight distribution and Cg, and its always the same.
Like has already been pointed out, lowering your car changes the center of gravity. Why else do people lower the car? To lower the CG of course. Again, as has already been stated, you where probably thinking that evan was mistakingly assuming that roll/squat/dive causes weight transfer (which is absolutly incorrect, other then the very very slight change in CG caused by roll, squat, and dive).
.RJ Wrote:going to an 11" setup infers you swap the master and prop valve because if you don't... well your pedal will feel like poo-poo.
suppose i should have qualified this more for evan's nitpicking hatred:
11" front brakes + appropriate mc and prop valve + drums > stock fronts + rear discs
The pedal will be affected mainly from a change in caliper piston diameter. A larger diameter piston will create more force for a given line pressure, but the brake pedal has to be pushed further to achieve the same line pressure because more fluid has to be displaced. The MC and calipers are functionally opposite of each other. You can increase the diameter of the piston in the MC to lessen the pedal throw, which will also decrease the pedal pressure. If you take from one you gotta give from the other.
The factors that have the largest effect on weight transfer are rate of ÔÇôacceleration (deceleration), center of gravity height, and the length of your wheelbase. Increasing the rate of deceleration and increasing the CG height both increase forward weight transfer. Increasing the length of the wheelbase decreases it. Many aftermarket brake kits increase stoping distances because they give to much front bias. A larger diameter rotor will most definatley increase brake torque and change brake bias. So will larger diameter caliper pistons. So will higher coefficient of friction pads in the front with crappy pads out back (alot of people do this).
A sort of wierd cause/effect thing that happens with when you make your brake system to front biased. With too much front bias you are hurting your stopping distances, basically lowering the rate of deceleration. This means there is less weight transfer up front and therefor less available traction. This further inscreases front bias. Just the opposite happens if your runnning a car with very sticky (ie race) tires. You can brake harder, causing more front weight transfer. This gives the front more traction.
-Mike
- Mike - 09-12-2005
mpg9999 Wrote:The pedal will be affected mainly from a change in caliper piston diameter. A larger diameter piston will create more force for a given line pressure, but the brake pedal has to be pushed further to achieve the same line pressure because more fluid has to be displaced. The MC and calipers are functionally opposite of each other. You can increase the diameter of the piston in the MC to lessen the pedal throw, which will also decrease the pedal pressure. If you take from one you gotta give from the other.
huh? nobody was arguing that.