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- G.Irish - 10-13-2004
Maengelito Wrote:thats not what i hear. i work directly with lots of soldiers and they say more people are glad to see soldiers and are glad to not be under saddam's rule anymore. there are some that are scared or dont like them, but ya know, i dont really like mike all that much either.
One thing that stands out to me with Iraq is that if the insurgency were as large and badass as they are made out to be there would be a lot more casualties on our side.
Unfortunately in urban combat a small group of hostiles can make a big impact if they are armed sufficiently. Especially when they had the opportunity to loot ammo depots.
- Kaan - 10-13-2004
if the insurgency were as large and badass as they are made out we would be at "war" still
- Mike - 10-13-2004
Kaan Wrote:if the insurgency were as large and badass as they are made out we would be at "war" still
uh... we're not? i think we take casualties at a higher rate right now than when we were "at war" bombing cities and such...
- damnit458 - 10-14-2004
Maengelito Wrote:MichaelJComputer Wrote:Feersty Wrote:talk to the soldiers that have actually been there, then you might have an idea what it is like.
it being iraq or the war? i regularly correspond with two high school friends that both went to afghanistan and are now in iraq... my cousin is about to be shipped out as well.
they all agree the place is a shithole, but we are overstepping our bounds being there.
thats not what i hear. i work directly with lots of soldiers and they say more people are glad to see soldiers and are glad to not be under saddam's rule anymore. there are some that are scared or dont like them, but ya know, i dont really like mike all that much either.
I also have a cousin in iraq, and he hates the place. He loves the marines, but he absolutely detests Iraq, and will definitly be voting against Bush in the next election. He completely agrees with the idea that we are overstepping our bounds.
Oh and I cant help but whole heartedly agree with jack's post. Its absurd the way people in this country think that the US is the only import country in the world. Oh, so almost all of the industrialized, core countries in the world look down on us and refuse to support us in a war...it has to be something wrong with them! The sheer ego of most people in this country, democrats included, is absurd.
The day will come when the United States is no longer the top power in this world, IMO sooner than later. We will see how people in this country deal with it, and see how the rest of the world deals with us when our economies and militaries are equal. Oh, and responding to evans comment on us liberals wanting to "turn the country over to the UN," like it or not globalization is occuring, w/o a doubt. Im not saying we should hand over the reins to one multi-national authority, but we cant keep defying regulations and laws passed by these groups.
- Maengelito - 10-14-2004
damnit458 Wrote:Oh, so almost all of the industrialized, core countries in the world look down on us and refuse to support us in a war...it has to be something wrong with them! The sheer ego of most people in this country, democrats included, is absurd.
The day will come when the United States is no longer the top power in this world, IMO sooner than later. We will see how people in this country deal with it, and see how the rest of the world deals with us when our economies and militaries are equal. Oh, and responding to evans comment on us liberals wanting to "turn the country over to the UN," like it or not globalization is occuring, w/o a doubt. Im not saying we should hand over the reins to one multi-national authority, but we cant keep defying regulations and laws passed by these groups.
iraq has never been a country that ignores everyone except themselves, which means that other countries have done business with them. if other industrial powerhouses have invested interest in selling them arms (hypothetically, of course) it would be hypocritical for them to keep selling them arms while attacking them, now wouldnt it?
i agree that the US needs to not act alone a lot of times but with the growth of the UN you have lots of people that believe all sorts of different things but are brought together by the notion that they are supposed to stand as one under the United Nations. well that leads to nothing but sitting on your hands and getting nothing done which the UN is known for. it'd be like asking none of us to vote until i could convince mike and jacko to vote for bush. we all know its not gonna happen, so why waste my time trying to when i can go vote myself and not get caught up in stupid intArnet political discussions even though i already have. ugh!
- Feersty - 10-14-2004
I can't wait till 2 November, it will be very exciting
- damnit458 - 10-14-2004
So other countries are frowned upon for supplying weapons to other countries, but the US is more than welcome to do it! And dont even try to tell me that the US doesnt, because we do.
Oh and yeah, I guess the UN does sit on their hands in comparison with bush and his administration. Although its hard to find a country that cant be described as sitting on their hands in comparison with the US in the last few years. Lets charge in, guns blazing, regardless of intent or actual facts! Thats the american way!!!
- Kaan - 10-14-2004
17 resolutions.... i think the world stuck two hands up there asses by this point.... fuck sitting on them.... at some point you have to back up what you say.... as far as i'm concerned the french, germans, russians and the rest of the world that just sat there are in need of some vagisil <insert rj vagisil pic>
- Maengelito - 10-14-2004
damnit458 Wrote:So other countries are frowned upon for supplying weapons to other countries, but the US is more than welcome to do it! And dont even try to tell me that the US doesnt, because we do.
thats not my point at all. countries sell arms to all sorts of other countries all the time. i'm not going to sell you a gun if i plan on coming into your house and kicking your ass and still expect you to pay for the gun i sold you, right? i'd rather take the money from the sale and not go into your house if i plan on wanting to sell you guns in the future.
- JackoliciousLegs - 10-14-2004
Maengelito Wrote:until i could convince mike and jacko to vote for bush. we all know its not gonna happenI came to know and hate Bush. I didn't take to it right off the bat. I understand fundamental differences, and I also don't blame him for a lot of economic problems. I could defend his stance on a lot of things before the whole gay marriage thing.. and before Iraq... and before he cut education funding...
but somewhere inside, I thought to myself, "self, this is just plain wrong. I don't care if Saddam ignored us. Sanctions were working. Gays should have equal protection under the law. The no child left behind act is a miserable attempt at education reform and he pulled too much money from education. What bush is doing is wrong. He's discriminating, underfunding education, and going balls first into war without any concrete reason."
He still hasn't owned up to any of his mistakes. That also scares me. He denied having made any mistakes. Silly Bush, we know you're human. It's ok to accept that.
- damnit458 - 10-14-2004
Yeah but you are dehumanizing a country by saying that it puts economy over all else. If that were true for all countries along with the United States would no longer be a distinct entity from the rest of the world; we would be ruled by something like the UN, or perhaps more appropriately, different Trade organizations. The US and the worlds economy is becoming more and more globalized, so this would be the next logical step, so that all countries followed one law, passing laws to promote the flow of capital. But, as in the example of the US, we see this is not the case. Most people would choose personal well being and pride at the expense of doing better economically (personal well being in the idea of being protected from being attacked, admitting that usually doing better economically means a higher standard of living, although not always).
Oh and even if this were not the case, major countries like france and germany will make more money economically through war than they will in just selling weapons; it takes billions upon billions of dollars to wage war.
edit: one more thing, you say that making money keeps these main countries out of the war. Yet through the war we are gaining access back to oil that was taken away from us, a huge economic factor. Coincidince?
- damnit458 - 10-14-2004
An interesting fact to go along with Jack's statement about taking money from education
The United States spends over 600 Billion dollars a year on the military.
The next closest country spends something like 200 billion.
If we literally cut our military spending by 200 billion we would still have a stronger military than anyone in the world, and probably enough money to have an all-inclusive welfare/health coverage policy....
edit: not attributing this to bush, just showing that for a long time our military has been recieving immense amounts of money that could easily go towards better causes.
- .RJ - 10-14-2004
JackoliciousLegs Wrote:He still hasn't owned up to any of his mistakes. That also scares me. He denied having made any mistakes. Silly Bush, we know you're human. It's ok to accept that.
Has any president owed up to his mistakes?
They're human.
- CaptainHenreh - 10-14-2004
I still can't believe that people are talking about the U.N. with a straight face after the oil for food fiasco.
Look, we're in Iraq. Kerry agrees that going into Iraq was the right thing to do. (Well, most of the time he agrees) What he disagrees with (most of the time) is our lack of international support.
Can anyone tell me why France, China, and Russia wouldn't want Saddam out of power? Bueller? Anyone?
I'm not saying Bush is the greatest president eVar. But we're basically fucked* if Kerry is elected president of this country.
*metaphorically speaking. Also, "basically fucked" is my opinion, not to be confused with actual, concrete fact. There's a slight chance we won't be "basically fucked", but hey, there's a chance I'll win the lottery tomorrow.
- Mike - 10-14-2004
Maengelito Wrote:i'm not going to sell you a gun if i plan on coming into your house and kicking your ass and still expect you to pay for the gun i sold you, right? i'd rather take the money from the sale and not go into your house if i plan on wanting to sell you guns in the future.
you'd think that'd be the case, but then why did we sell arms to the taliban and iraq in the 80s? taliban we attacked because they attacked, that is udnerstandable, but iraq? that i still do not get, and likely never will.
- damnit458 - 10-14-2004
MichaelJComputer Wrote:Maengelito Wrote:i'm not going to sell you a gun if i plan on coming into your house and kicking your ass and still expect you to pay for the gun i sold you, right? i'd rather take the money from the sale and not go into your house if i plan on wanting to sell you guns in the future.
you'd think that'd be the case, but then why did we sell arms to the taliban and iraq in the 80s? taliban we attacked because they attacked, that is udnerstandable, but iraq? that i still do not get, and likely never will.
damnit mike, took the words right outta my fucking mouth
- JackoliciousLegs - 10-14-2004
.RJ Wrote:Has any president owed up to his mistakes?Uhh... yes... actually, they have. It makes them a stronger person. Not owning up to your own mistakes is pigheaded. Bush was asked DIRECTLY if he had made any mistakes... and of course, moved the question elsewhere... EXACTLY like he did SO many times last night. I was about to go ballistic because of how many times he said "no child left behind is a success."
They're human.
- Dragon - 10-14-2004
JackoliciousLegs Wrote:That doesn't answer .RJ's question..RJ Wrote:Has any president owed up to his mistakes?Uhh... yes... actually, they have. It makes them a stronger person.
They're human.
- .RJ - 10-14-2004
JackoliciousLegs Wrote:because of how many times he said "no child left behind is a success."
Depends on how you define success.
You cant fix that problem in just a few years. IMO, its a success if they are significantly better off than they were when they started and still continuing to move in the right direction.
Kerry said that hte % improvement doenst matter if you didnt get the job done - which is true, but he still did not offer any alternative plan.
- JackoliciousLegs - 10-14-2004
how doesn't it, i said yes, they have. Clinton did for example. I know you reps love that I said that.