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+--- Thread: The market is BEGGING.... (/showthread.php?tid=6247)
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Steve85 - 07-09-2013
That sounds really dumb. I thought one of the advantages of DI is being able to run extremely lean at low engine speeds to increase economy. If anything, I would think a dual mode system would be the opposite of this system.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - G.Irish - 07-09-2013
Maybe it's just me but it seems like there are a number of sports cars coming out these days that cannot mechanically handle being driven as intended. There's the whole 370Z issue where it has severe oil and brake cooling problems, the 335 and C63 limp mode issues, and a number of cars where if you leave the TC on it'll cook the brakes (because it uses braking at each corner to control the car). And now this.
Major disappoint.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - NTIman - 07-09-2013
ScottyB Wrote:Jason, you see many of these at the dealership?
We don't see many issues with the FRS so far. Most who bought them don't drive them hard, unless you're counting stoplight to stoplight racing anyway.
So far we've seen the rough idle VCT tune bullshit, and leaky taillights.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - ScottyB - 07-09-2013
G.Irish Wrote:Maybe it's just me but it seems like there are a number of sports cars coming out these days that cannot mechanically handle being driven as intended.
this is eerily true. i literally can only think of handful of "sports cars" that either can sustain long and repeated beatings on track without experiencing catastrophic mechanic issues, or don't have serious long-term engineering oversights. first thing I thought of when you said that was the 370z as well, funny enough. porsche also came to mind with the IMS bearing disaster and i've heard cayman's have oil starvation issues.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - nismosam - 07-09-2013
Nissan actually fixed the 370 oil cooling problems, they issued a recall to install oil coolers on them.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - G.Irish - 07-10-2013
What'd Nissan due about inadequate brake cooling? I think it was Car and Driver that wadded up a Nismo Z at VIR because of a total brake failure. They did some more testing and found that the hardware was enough for the job, but there was not enough air routed to cooling the brakes. I suppose that's somewhat easily fixed with brake ducts but it seems silly that you'd have to do that for a stock sports car that weighs what the Z does.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - xvxax - 07-10-2013
I guess to me it kind of comes with the territory.
This isn't really anything new. The e36 BMWs need an oil baffle to prevent starvation or an expensive dual pickup oil pump, LS1s are notorious for oiling issues as well. Tons of performance cars don't have adequate brakes for the track.
It's up to you as the end user to make sure that a car can be driven 10/10ths at a track. Nissan isn't going to pony up the extra R&D and materials cost (which then get passed on to the consumer) to put in brake ducts when 98% of the owners will never experience fade. Ask David L how his STI Brembos held up at VIR, totally inadequate for parade laps. That's just how it is.
As far as the seals go, I would be surprised if the aftermarket or Toyobaru doesn't come up with a solution shortly.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - G.Irish - 07-10-2013
xvxax Wrote:I guess to me it kind of comes with the territory.Maybe I just didn't notice these things before but in the past it didn't seem like you had to do anything but put some fluid and pads on the car and go rock and roll. I mean, if a Mustang, that weighs a hell of a lot more and makes a lot more power doesn't need brake ducts, why should the Z need 'em?
This isn't really anything new. The e36 BMWs need an oil baffle to prevent starvation or an expensive dual pickup oil pump, LS1s are notorious for oiling issues as well. Tons of performance cars don't have adequate brakes for the track.
It's up to you as the end user to make sure that a car can be driven 10/10ths at a track. Nissan isn't going to pony up the extra R&D and materials cost (which then get passed on to the consumer) to put in brake ducts when 98% of the owners will never experience fade. Ask David L how his STI Brembos held up at VIR, totally inadequate for parade laps. That's just how it is.
As far as the seals go, I would be surprised if the aftermarket or Toyobaru doesn't come up with a solution shortly.
C&D was saying the reason that Nissan skimped on the cooling to the brakes was so they could reduce drag and bump the fuel economy numbers. If that was the case, that is stupid. No one looking at a Z is going to care about 1 extra mpg, but they're sure as hell gonna care that their 2 seat sports car can't even handle the same kind of driving that the previous gen did.
For a car like a regular 3 series I wouldn't judge too harshly if it can't stand up to full track abuse. But the M3 definitely should be more stout (which it is) as should the C63 (which it isn't).
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Maengelito - 07-10-2013
xvxax Wrote:Ask David L how his STI Brembos held up at VIR, totally inadequate for parade laps.
What kind of pads was he using? I don't think there's an issue with the design of the Brembos themselves but brake pad material makes a world of difference.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - xvxax - 07-10-2013
I think HPS or HP+, did Car & Driver put track pads in and replace the fluid when they went off at VIR? Nah, they were on stock pads with stock fluid and the brakes failed on the biggest braking zone on the track.
I imagine most companies aren't running out on r-compounds on every car they make to see if they oil starve on long corners, because lots do without baffling, accusump, aftermarket pumps or whatever.
Heck, looking at your signature, s2000s are notorious for blowing up diffs with launches and overheating at the track too.
Expecting a company to account for 100% of track day failures is unreasonable to me. I definitely wouldn't want to be a beta tester, but now that my car is 20 years old all of the problems are well known and have been corrected by the aftermarket. I imagine the same will be true for the BRZ/FRS twins in time.
Another note about the BRZ - that's a new motor in its first year of production. I imagine that there may be a change in the injector in later years. That is why many people suggest waiting for the 2nd year of production on a new car like that... eg 2004 STI. I wouldn't be too upset until Toyota/Subaru tell owners to pound sand like the subframe issues on BMWs.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - G.Irish - 07-11-2013
xvxax Wrote:I think HPS or HP+, did Car & Driver put track pads in and replace the fluid when they went off at VIR? Nah, they were on stock pads with stock fluid and the brakes failed on the biggest braking zone on the track.The problem is the Z failed spectacularly where no other car in the history of C&D's Lightning Lap did. They use the stock set up on every car and none of them had a zero-warning, total brake failure like the Z did.
They went on to do more testing of the Z's braking system. They had done another brake test with several other cars a few years back, so they used the same test on the 370Z and compared the results.
The 335i did 35 stops before decent brake fade in the previous brake test. When they tried a stock Nismo Z it only did 20 stops before massive fade and that was with upgraded pads from Nissan. The upgraded pads were an option added after the aforementioned impact with the VIR tire wall. Even a stock VW Passat was able to do 25 stops before brake fade.
It took Ferodo pads and ATE Superblue to get decent fade resistance, and even then it only matched stock 335i braking performance.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.caranddriver.com/features/z-meets-wall-we-investigate-why-the-nismo-zs-brakes-failed-at-lightning-lap">http://www.caranddriver.com/features/z- ... htning-lap</a><!-- m -->
Quote:I imagine most companies aren't running out on r-compounds on every car they make to see if they oil starve on long corners, because lots do without baffling, accusump, aftermarket pumps or whatever.I'd agree that for all but hardcore sports cars, track testing with r-comps shouldn't be expected.
Quote:Expecting a company to account for 100% of track day failures is unreasonable to me. I definitely wouldn't want to be a beta tester, but now that my car is 20 years old all of the problems are well known and have been corrected by the aftermarket. I imagine the same will be true for the BRZ/FRS twins in time.I don't think anyone expects 100% reliability under all track conditions for stock and modified cars. But I don't think it's unreasonable for people to expect that a stock sports car can handle some laps at the average race track without major incident. In the case of the Z, there's no reason it's braking performance should be worse than a plebeian family sedan. I'd agree that if you plan on tracking you should get some better pads and Superblue as a matter of course but with the Z it sounds like even that isn't enough.
Quote:Another note about the BRZ - that's a new motor in its first year of production. I imagine that there may be a change in the injector in later years. That is why many people suggest waiting for the 2nd year of production on a new car like that... eg 2004 STI. I wouldn't be too upset until Toyota/Subaru tell owners to pound sand like the subframe issues on BMWs.Subaru does seem to be pretty quick about addressing issues. They may not issue a recall but I wouldn't be surprised if they made some changes for the next model year.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Evan - 08-05-2013
now thats what Im talkin about
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.autoblog.com/2013/08/04/subaru-brz-sti-teasers-coming-soon/">http://www.autoblog.com/2013/08/04/suba ... ming-soon/</a><!-- m -->
![[Image: BRZ_tS_teaser-opt.jpg]](http://hss-prod.hss.aol.com/hss/storage/adam/c5c21177f69785ac99de7bd6c63ec39e/BRZ_tS_teaser-opt.jpg)
(too bad they didnt fix the ugly subaru bumper bucktooth bumper though)
edit: orrrrrr is it just a bolt-on package?
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.7tune.com/news-the-facts-about-the-brz-sti-ts-version/">http://www.7tune.com/news-the-facts-abo ... s-version/</a><!-- m -->
subaru you tease
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - JPolen01 - 08-05-2013
I can't see that link at work, but from what I can see it's not going to be an STi at all. It will be the BRZ TS (Tuned by STi) and will be basic exterior/interior bolt ons taken from the STi parts catalog. Only 500 units will be made. Nothing to get excited about. And it looks like they will be Japan release only.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2536572">http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthr ... ?t=2536572</a><!-- m -->
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Evan - 11-20-2013
Its car show season, that time of the year when we can pretend that the automakers are going to someday make some cool shit.
First up: Nissan IDx. Retro 510 reboot. (with a pinch of vintage 240z sprinkled in)
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.autoblog.com/photos/nissan-idx-freeflow-concept/#photo-1578915/">http://www.autoblog.com/photos/nissan-i ... o-1578915/</a><!-- m -->
![[Image: ge5695676285509345755.jpg]](http://liveimages.motoring.com.au/motoring/general/editorial/ge5695676285509345755.jpg)
![[Image: 2014_nissan_idx_freeflow_concept_05-1120-460x272.jpg]](http://www.themotorreport.com.au/content/image/2/0/2014_nissan_idx_freeflow_concept_05-1120-460x272.jpg)
personally I wouldnt mind one bit if nissan brought this to market as their FR-S/BRZ competitor.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - G.Irish - 11-20-2013
I can see the retro influences but that thing just doesn't work for me, and certainly isn't as good looking as the BRZ/FR-S. I was hoping for something more sleek and sexy like a S15. This, I don't quite know what to do with it.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Evan - 11-20-2013
yeah I hear you its pretty polarizing. it took me a minute to warm up to it but I really like the bulldog look.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Evan - 11-20-2013
outback-ified BRZ
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/20/subaru-cross-sport-design-concept-brz-tokyo-2013/">http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/20/suba ... okyo-2013/</a><!-- m -->
kill it with fire.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - *insertusernamehere* - 11-20-2013
Evan Wrote:outback-ified BRZIf they made it less crossover-ey and more hatchback-ey that would be awesome! I can see potential for that
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/20/subaru-cross-sport-design-concept-brz-tokyo-2013/">http://www.autoblog.com/2013/11/20/suba ... okyo-2013/</a><!-- m -->
kill it with fire.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - G.Irish - 11-20-2013
What I don't understand is, how are you gonna bring out a weird BRZ hatchback out, and not a 5-door WRX hatchback?
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - *insertusernamehere* - 11-20-2013
Don't be afraid of a little change haha
