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+--- Thread: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) (/showthread.php?tid=11293)
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - rherold9 - 01-04-2019
(01-04-2019, 11:17 AM)CaptainHenreh Wrote: I mean I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but my point when I go reeeeeeeee taxationistheft is this:
Here's an idea:
Drive to Boston Harbor. Light some ships on fire while shouting, "No taxation without representation". This, I'm sure, will bring the end to the taxation "theft" you yell at clouds about.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 01-04-2019
(01-04-2019, 11:30 AM)rherold9 Wrote:(01-04-2019, 11:17 AM)CaptainHenreh Wrote: I mean I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but my point when I go reeeeeeeee taxationistheft is this:
Here's an idea:
Drive to Boston Harbor. Light some ships on fire while shouting, "No taxation without representation". This, I'm sure, will bring the end to the taxation "theft" you yell at clouds about.
Eh, I'll stick to minimizing my personal tax burden and advocating at every avenue and opportunity for reduced spending and fiscal responsibility while attempting to influence the way people think and talk about taxation. Sometimes that will be a nuanced and thoughtful conversation and sometimes it will be me yelling "Taxation is theft!"
I mean, I'm happy to listen to reasons why it's not theft but if taking my money at threat of violence is theft when one person elects to do it, then it is when one million people elect to do it.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - rherold9 - 01-04-2019
If the world called it something else besides "tax" would you consider it theft still? Let's say tariff or social burden?
Definition of theft. 1a : the act of stealing specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it. b : an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property.
Even if the word tax is in the equation I don't see how it's "theft", specifically.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 01-04-2019
(01-04-2019, 11:40 AM)rherold9 Wrote: If the world called it something else besides "tax" would you consider it theft still? Let's say tariff or social burden?
If it's money or time that is taken from me by threat of force without my explicit consent, you can call it happy Skippy fun funding, it's still theft.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - rherold9 - 01-04-2019
All right, but taxes aren't crimes so how can it be theft by definition?
And no, you considering it a crime doesn't make it a crime by the law.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 01-04-2019
(01-04-2019, 11:40 AM)rherold9 Wrote: Even if the word tax is in the equation I don't see how it's "theft", specifically.
How is it not?
Ok, you have a car, right? You bought the car with the product of your labor.
If I came to your house and said, "Nice car. Looks like it's worth about 30 grand. Pay me $750 dollars or I'll lock you in my basement and take your car." That'd be stealing, right?
I never claimed it was illegal. I claimed it was theft. "The taking of property without consent."
By your definition the Nazis didn't steal from the Jews they sent to concentration camps, cuz it was legal.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - rherold9 - 01-04-2019
"unlawful taking" | "felonious". I'm just going by the strict definition of theft. If taxes were unlawful I'd agree. Yes, the the big boy government is taking your money, but no they aren't "stealing" it, specifically.
steal - take (another person's property) without permission or legal right
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 01-04-2019
(01-04-2019, 12:01 PM)rherold9 Wrote: "unlawful taking" | "felonious". I'm just going by the strict definition of theft. If taxes were unlawful I'd agree. Yes, the the big boy government is taking your money, but no they aren't "stealing" it, specifically.
steal - take (another person's property) without permission or legal right
It's a shitty argument that relies on the dictionary.
Again: when the Nazis "acquired" Jewish property within their borders: stealing or not?
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - rherold9 - 01-04-2019
(01-04-2019, 11:51 AM)CaptainHenreh Wrote: If I came to your house and said, "Nice car. Looks like it's worth about 30 grand. Pay me $750 dollars or I'll lock you in my basement and take your car." That'd be stealing, right?
Yes, you'd be stealing from me in that case. You aren't the government, unfortunately. Not saying the government should be able to take your taxes if you don't want them too, but it's not against the law, so therefore it's technically not theft.
Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - Senor_Taylor - 01-04-2019
Today we learn that language is fluid and the intent of the message is more important than the denotation derived from a dictionary.
Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - rherold9 - 01-04-2019
(01-04-2019, 12:03 PM)CaptainHenreh Wrote: It's a shitty argument that relies on the dictionary.
Again: when the Nazis "acquired" Jewish property within their borders: stealing or not?
Is your generic/common argument any better?
Depends on what the property was and/or used for? The laws as well. There are huge, inhumane things that go on, but does that mean they are crimes/against the law of that specific government? BTW, I'm not arguing for what they did; what Nazis did was down right awful from an ethical standpoint.
Not saying it should be okay. You can fight back if you want in different ways. AS mentioned, lower your taxable assets, etc. if you don't like it
This is the type of shit lawyers argue about all the time; it's what they get paid to do. Argue for or against words, interpretation, and definition. You can argue both ways with ease. Devil's advocate is a fun game.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 01-04-2019
(01-04-2019, 12:07 PM)rherold9 Wrote:(01-04-2019, 12:03 PM)CaptainHenreh Wrote: It's a shitty argument that relies on the dictionary.
Again: when the Nazis "acquired" Jewish property within their borders: stealing or not?
Depends on what the property was and/or used for? The laws as well. There are huge, inhumane things that go on, but does that mean they are crimes/against the law of that specific government? BTW, I'm not arguing for what they did; what Nazis did was down right awful from an ethical standpoint.
Ok, so if it's strictly "legal", then we should be cool with it.
![[Image: 200w.gif?cid=5a38a5a25c2f86b33134626b32f8c653]](https://media1.giphy.com/media/9xt5eMX6WhOhvfWajw/200w.gif?cid=5a38a5a25c2f86b33134626b32f8c653)
And yes, I do all of those things. I make charitable donations, I minimize my tax burden, to make sure as little of my money gets taken from me as possible. I just believe that by thinking of it as, say "State Sanctioned Larceny", maybe people wouldn't be so fucking gung-ho about spending other people's money.
Would you feel better if I said "Taxation is Deprivation of Property Without Explicit Consent"? It's a bit of a mouthful but for just for you sweetie, I'll consider it.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - SlimKlim - 01-04-2019
(01-04-2019, 11:17 AM)CaptainHenreh Wrote:(12-21-2018, 03:59 PM)Apoc Wrote:(12-21-2018, 03:52 PM).RJ Wrote: If you dont want the extreme viewpoint, kick the taxation is theft dont tread on snek people out of the Libertarian party.
But we like Rex.
I mean I can't speak for anyone else but myself, but my point when I go reeeeeeeee taxationistheft is this:
I recognize the reality of men with guns coercing me into forking over the hard earned sweat of my brow. It's theft, plain and simple, even if I also recognize the necessity.
But fuck me if I would rather MY money NOT go to pay for bombing the shit out of Yemeni kids, eh?
Calling taxes what they are, to me, just highlights the even more aggregious offense of the government squandering tax dollars on bullshit. Stealing my money is bad enough, using it to topple other foreign governments is just adding insult to that injury.
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division
Just because a percentage of your tax dollars are spent on things you don't agree with doesn't negate the importance of the fundamental concept of paying taxes. I don't understand the productivity of your argument when you admit the necessity of them right there. Instead of asserting a demonstrably false claim like "taxation is theft" that is going to set people on edge, why not start with your actual point of "Hey, maybe it would be cool if our country didn't waste a fuckload of money on warmongering and spent it on its citizens instead"
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - rherold9 - 01-04-2019
I never said you have to be cool with it. I don't want the government spending tax dollars to bomb whatever country. I don't want my tax dollars to build more wall on the Mexico border, but that doesn't make it theft that I'm paying taxes lol.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 01-04-2019
(01-04-2019, 12:23 PM)SlimKlim Wrote: https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division
Just because a percentage of your tax dollars are spent on things you don't agree with doesn't negate the importance of the fundamental concept of paying taxes. I don't understand the productivity of your argument when you admit the necessity of them right there. Instead of asserting a demonstrably false claim like "taxation is theft" that is going to set people on edge, why not start with your actual point of "Hey, maybe it would be cool if our country didn't waste a fuckload of money on warmongering and spent it on its citizens instead"
"I just believe that by thinking of it as, say "State Sanctioned Larceny", maybe people wouldn't be so fucking gung-ho about spending other people's money." - Me.
It is funds taken without my consent, on threat of violence. If one person does that, it's theft. If 10 people do it, theft. If 100 people do it, theft. If 1 million people do it...Tax? Explain to me how that isn't theft, since it's as you say, demonstrably false. I can recognize that some benefit comes from said theft while still maintaining the theft itself is immoral without any contradiction. If I steal your wallet and buy you a sandwhich and give the rest to charity I still stole from you. It might be the tastiest sandwhich you ever had and my donation might have kept a family alive through the winter but I still stole from you. Why is it different when 1,000,000 people do the exact same thing?
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - Apoc - 01-04-2019
It's not theft because the government made it legal. It's demonstrable!
Didn't you know that's how it works, Rex?
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 01-04-2019
(01-04-2019, 12:35 PM)Apoc Wrote: It's not theft because the government made it legal. It's demonstrable!
Didn't you know that's how it works, Rex?
Of course, silly me.
And it's not just the absurd military spending and other wasteful bullshit, which is why Joey's "fallacy" demonstration really wasn't.
It's the coercion, ultimately. The government could spend my tax money on philly cheese steaks, belt fed machine guns, and blowjob thursdays for males in their 30's with blue eyes and and overworked sense of political philosophy and I'd still be salty about it because I was coerced into paying for it.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - SlimKlim - 01-04-2019
I think you're manipulating the definition of theft to suit your argument. Taxes are written law, is choosing to continue to live here and implicitly receive the benefits of tax-payer funded services like police/fire not considered your consent?
Have you considered shopping for old barges you can push out into international waters?
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - CaptainHenreh - 01-04-2019
(01-04-2019, 12:42 PM)SlimKlim Wrote: I think you're manipulating the definition of theft to suit your argument. Taxes are written law, is choosing to continue to live here and implicitly receive the benefits of tax-payer funded services like police/fire not considered your consent?
Have you considered shopping for old barges you can push out into international waters?
My fire department works just fine without any tax dollars. I freely give to them and they operate just fine.
You haven't said why it's not theft.
If the government said I had to let someone have sex with me or the police would come and throw me in jail, that'd still be rape, even if it were written into law.
RE: Electile Dysfunction (Current students plz look!) - rherold9 - 01-04-2019
(01-04-2019, 12:35 PM)Apoc Wrote: It's not theft because the government made it legal. It's demonstrable!
Didn't you know that's how it works, Rex?
That's the whole argument though. You can not like taxes all you want, but it's not theft. Just because you believe in something else ethically, morally, etc. doesn't mean it is legal or illegal. It's all government depending. Women just got the rights to drive in some cultures/governments. That can be seen morally, ethically, etc. as no they shouldn't be allowed or yes they should've been allowed awhile ago. That's law. Does it mean it's right? Maybe. Does it mean it's wrong? Maybe. Not everyone can agree, but law is law. You can always not follow it or make what you believe in less of an issue like Rex has done.
I knew this would turn into stupid bickering match. Thankfully I was/still am bored at work and glad I started this
Seems like we are all on the same page though. Just opinions on why taxes suck or don't now. Fair enough.