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+--- Thread: The market is BEGGING.... (/showthread.php?tid=6247)
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - JPolen01 - 02-10-2012
As said above, comparing this to a gti is just plain silly. Completely different set of fanbois including me are loving this car. As far as going from this to a 370,keep dreaming as the 370 is going to bump you up into a whole other price bracket. 200 hp is all this car needs. Ever seen a miata? They sell pretty well for a slow tiny car. With a few bolt ons and a possible turbo variant sometimes from subaru, this car is going to do exactly what it set out to do. Break into the the low budget rear wheel drive market. It's not going to sway anybody with their huge balls looking to go fast from stop light to stop light.
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Re: The market is BEGGING.... - G.Irish - 02-10-2012
WRXtranceformed Wrote:It's just the reality of it. Anyone buying this car to track might as well just buy a Miata, or step it up and buy a RWD V8 coupe.Well if you buy a Miata you'd have to then go buy and install a roll bar, not to mention that a Miata doesn't have a backseat. As far as stepping it up and buying a RWD V8 coupe, now you're talking about spending over $30,000 vs under $24,000. Either way, I don't think the kind of person who is shopping a Mustang GT would be looking at this car anyway.
Tyler.M Wrote:Eh, the BR-Z and the GT-86 look cool, but 200 hp? I mean that's pretty anemic for cars nowadays, and when a mini cooper S could potentially beat you off the line, I'd say you might have an issue. Do like that they''ll be release a mechanical diff eventually, but I'll wait until they release a nice turbo model before I get too excited.A Cooper S has less horsepower and only weighs a touch less (like <50 lbs) so I'd imagine they'd be pretty similar in straight line speed.
Tyler.M Wrote:Honestly, though I'm not sure what market these guys are trying to break into. I mean, the BR-Z is gonna be around 24k, pitting it right up against some pretty popular hot hatches like the GTI, which is already inundated with competitors. I suppose its nice to have something that's RWD that fills the gap that was vacated after the s2000 was ended, but still... it doesn't seem like this base model will be much of a performer.... I'd rather just save the cash and buy me a 370zAll of the other hot hatches are heavier and front wheel drive. None of them will be appreciably faster in a straight line (other than the Mazdaspeed 3 and forthcoming Focus ST) and I'd wager none will be comprehensively better in driving experience. The most direct competitor I can see is maybe the Genesis Coupe, but that thing weighs at least 600 lbs more than the 86. It has more power but I'll take lighter weight every time.
The 86 is not filling the gap left by the S2000 at all. The S2000 was a $35k roadster, this costs a full $10000 less and naturally does not have the performance that the S2000 had. Same deal with the 370z. If you're looking to spend $32k or more on a 370Z, you're looking at a difference class of car. In that case none of the <$25k sport compacts are really what you'd be looking for.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Tyler.M - 02-11-2012
Yeah, but putting this car in the same price bracket as a gti, then making it less powerful, and less practical? It's not really all that silly to compare when you think that a person who's looking for a sporty car and has 24k is probably going to consider both since both are similar segments of the market and similarly priced. Couple that with the fact that there isn't as big of a selection of sports cars in this market, and you end up with the fact that they do compete, even if indirectly. I mean, I suppose a market exists for this kind of car, I just wish they stepped it up a a little bit to make it more of a performer and pit it against the Z, instead of giving this kinda half-assed supra type of thing.
Not that I'm saying its a bad thing that it's coming out. It looks sweet. But if I had 24k to spend, and I was looking for something "sporty" I'd pass over this for some other options that offer a bit more for meh dollahs. These two cars are just marketing themselves to the boy racer crowd instead of actually creating a viable sports car for a price bracket that's been lacking one lately, kinda like what chevy did with the Cobalt SS.
Miata is slightly different for a few reasons, one it's a convertible, two, it's had the entry level sports car segment by the balls for nearly two decades, and 3, its marketed to men in their 40's in the middle of the income range, 3 things these cars don't have or do.
I suppose I understand subie and toyota wanting to get into an entry level sports car range, but that doesn't mean I like it. I would like to see what they do with the TRD and STi version though, but as of right now the cars look cool, but they're a bit overpriced for what you get. You're paying for badges, not much else.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - ScottyB - 02-11-2012
Tyler.M Wrote:Yeah, but putting this car in the same price bracket as a gti, then making it less powerful, and less practical?
i'm pretty convinced the people who are waiting to buy the GT86 aren't cross shopping GTI's. the driving dynamics are nothing alike despite similar numbers. and even in cases where performance numbers are similar, there is no way to reproduce the feeling of a lightweight car in a heavy one.
for what it is, i find it extremely practical. hatchback, back seat, 30mpg highway, low consumables, with what will likely be very high build quality and a decent warranty. sure, for 25K there are lots of nice cars you could buy, but you're probably not going to get the same driving experience out of them, or they aren't new cars.
this car reminds me of the RX8. people either love it or don't get it/don't want it. not much middle ground. i really hope this car succeeds because i'm tired of the escalating weight problem that nearly every single modern car suffers from, and will continue to suffer from given our unending cultural appetite for filling a car with lots of shit we don't need.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Dave - 02-11-2012
Tyler.M Wrote:But if I had 24k to spend, and I was looking for something "sporty" I'd pass over this for some other options that offer a bit more for meh dollahs.Please provide what other options you would truthfully consider, other than the GTI you suggested.
Tyler.M Wrote:Miata is slightly different for a few reasons, one it's a convertible, two, it's had the entry level sports car segment by the balls for nearly two decades, and 3, its marketed to men in their 40's in the middle of the income range, 3 things these cars don't have or do.Coupes and verts have been competitors for decades, why do you think so many coupes end up having convertible versions made of them? Regarding point 2, a high barrier to entry is an economic challenge for bringing a product to market, not a reason for why two products aren't competition. For point 3, I think it remains to be seen how the GT86 is going to be marketed to the mass public, or how they will respond. So far it has been a metric assload of internet talk on car forums & sites because car enthusiasts are excited that a manufacturer finally seems to have executed on what a small niche of people have been asking for - light, RWD, nimble, and fun to drive. That sounds like the very definition of the Miata we all love.
As you said, the differences between them are slight, but that doesn't make them different classes of market competition. In terms of practicality, GT86 seems to have a leg up on the competition in some areas.
I just hope that everybody who has said they would buy one if it was built ends up going out and doing it. It may send a signal to the industry that this is something that will get buyers excited and that they need to develop a business plan to include it, which only benefits us as the manufacturers compete for market share. If they had pulled this off 2-3 years ago, I'd probably have one in my garage...
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Steve85 - 02-12-2012
Interesting debate between people who think this is exactly what the automotive world needs and everything they ever wanted but won't buy for one lame (or at least unmentioned) reason or another vs those who think it won't sell because people want more than it has to offer.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - ViPER1313 - 02-12-2012
If this car had been available when I bought the Mustang, I still would have bought the Mustang :dunno: The Mustang looks a hell of a lot better IMO, and has an extra 100hp.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Apoc - 02-12-2012
Yeah, but you live live in Frederick. So... OK?
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Dave - 02-12-2012
Steve85 Wrote:Interesting debate between people who think this is exactly what the automotive world needs and everything they ever wanted but won't buy for one lame (or at least unmentioned) reason or another vs those who think it won't sell because people want more than it has to offer.Well, my reason is just bad timing
. 2-3 years ago, we weren't in family mode and I totally could have bought a cool coupe like this to have fun with. Now that I've started to procreate, I've had to re-prioritize things a bit for the short term. Of course, 2-3 years ago I wasn't as wise, so maybe I'm just making up another excuse :dunno: .
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Evan - 02-13-2012
Tyler.M Wrote:Yeah, but putting this car in the same price bracket as a gti, then making it less powerful, and less practical? It's not really all that silly to compare when you think that a person who's looking for a sporty car and has 24k is probably going to consider both since both are similar segments of the market and similarly priced. Couple that with the fact that there isn't as big of a selection of sports cars in this market, and you end up with the fact that they do compete, even if indirectly.A camry has more in common to a GTI than a 86, and its the marketing department's job to point that out, as well as enthusiasts such as us to fly the flag of real sports cars like this.
Subaru/toyota definitely have their work cut out for them to be able to market this car and effectively communicate that hp is only a small part of the driving enjoyment sports car equation.
But if some enthusiasts dont even understand the advantages of this car over a tarted up econobox, then perhaps its going to be even harder than I thought.
A
Quote: I mean, I suppose a market exists for this kind of car, I just wish they stepped it up a a little bit to make it more of a performer and pit it against the Z, instead of giving this kinda half-assed supra type of thing.do you realize that the 86 has a better power to weight ratio than your M3?
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - WRXtranceformed - 02-13-2012
I think the biggest problem for Toyota is that it's going to be here under the Scion badge. I think Subaru will have a much easier time marketing their version toward their loyalists.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - D_Eclipse9916 - 02-13-2012
Evan,
I think your starting to "get" that the general public are morons and just look at wether its faster or not. Then you get some enthusiasts where they look at a brand new car at a 26K point when you could get a 2 year old evo/sti that has caught way more fanboi attention.
Its going to be an uphill battle on this car after the first 2 years. I personally wouldnt buy one, I think their hideous and 200hp is laughable in this day of age even if the power to weight is good. I love people keep bringing up a USDM m3 for comparison. The newest one was built 11 years ago, and was even the "watered down" slow version of the m3, where europe got 300+ hp.
I wish the market would embrace what enthusiasts want which this car is very close to (if it was pretty I would definitely even ignore the power number because of the power/weight). The only reason S2ks and miatas sell well is they are also cute convertibles that look fun and are cheap drop tops. Not because they are an "enthusiast" car.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - ScottyB - 02-13-2012
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:Not because they are an "enthusiast" car.
i don't even know you anymore.
is anyone else here aware that TRD and STi WILL have a field day with this thing? its just a matter of time guys. i just don't think power is going to be an issue once they bring out the factory tuned versions and the aftermarket will take care of the rest.
most manufacturers don't roll out the hipo versions until the entry model has had time in the market, so there will be continued interest in the product line instead of a glut of sales up front. see Solstice GXP, Camaro SS, GT500, Impreza STi (from the 2002 market), and most SRT cars, just off the top of my head..
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Goodspeed - 02-13-2012
ScottyB Wrote:D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:Not because they are an "enthusiast" car.
i don't even know you anymore.
is anyone else here aware that TRD and STi WILL have a field day with this thing? its just a matter of time guys. i just don't think power is going to be an issue once they bring out the factory tuned versions and the aftermarket will take care of the rest.
most manufacturers don't roll out the hipo versions until the entry model has had time in the market, so there will be continued interest in the product line instead of a glut of sales up front. see Solstice GXP, Camaro SS, GT500, Impreza STi (from the 2002 market), and most SRT cars, just off the top of my head..
Scotty, welcome to the twilight zone, where nothing is good enough for this crowd of non-buyers :lol: Seriously, its pretty warping to read the preliminary thoughts when none of us has even sat in the thing yet. I'm a trusting optimist though, perhaps that'll be my downfall. But I think this car will be good, in driving dynamics, fun per dollar, and sales.
Call me crazy.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - D_Eclipse9916 - 02-13-2012
Goodspeed Wrote:crazy.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - JPolen01 - 02-13-2012
ScottyB Wrote:is anyone else here aware that TRD and STi WILL have a field day with this thing? its just a matter of time guys. i just don't think power is going to be an issue once they bring out the factory tuned versions and the aftermarket will take care of the rest.Thank you for reinforcing this. All of you people yelling about horsepower are the same people who preach driver skills win races not power. I posted up a few pages back a post with upgraded parts from TRD already. They are already in development on these because they know the crowd this car attracts will want to upgrade eventually. They aren't looking for a monster street car from the box, they want to build it themselves their own way.
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Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Evan - 02-13-2012
STi and TRD will not have a field day with this thing if it gets cancelled after 2 years because the dbags who call themselves enthusiasts wont buy it since they would rather have a [insert tarted up fwd econo shitbox] with a few more hp
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - WRXtranceformed - 02-13-2012
So you spend $25k on a car and then $6k in upgrades just to be barely as fast as a slightly used EVO or STi? And you void the warranty in the meantime? I just don't see that appealing to a lot of people who want to buy this car brand new.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Evan - 02-13-2012
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:the general public are morons and just look at wether its faster or not.
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:I personally wouldnt buy one....200hp is laughable in this day of age
:bootyshake:
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Ken - 02-13-2012
Not to mention just short of being in buying a new Evo/STi territory...