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+--- Thread: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 (/showthread.php?tid=10604)
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - SlimKlim - 05-06-2015
rherold9 Wrote:ScottyB Wrote:Kaan Wrote:Safety equipment is an all or nothing thing
this. it works as a system. if you start mixing componentry you're bringing in variables that disrupt the safety benefits of the intended system. you either go all in, or keep it stock with the safety stuff. your car is slow enough right now that you can probably leave it be and spend the money on track time to actually get fast enough to where it would be a true benefit to have the car caged and belted.
a decent google search will probably get you all the feedback you want to see on what happens with fixed back seats in a non-caged car. or listen to the alumni here, there is a TON of combined experience amongst your fellow MMers. Kaan has seen it all and there are probably half a dozen of us actively posting here on the forum that are either active/retired racers or instructors that have come up through the HPDE ranks and saw for themselves how to do it the right way.
Ah yes, I understand the point. I know there is an argument here to be made. What my thoughts were is I'm going to slowly move up I'd like to have pieces in place for a later time. And the part about my car being slow is the reason why I think I'll be okay with what I have planned out. Something like Navin said may be my best option or what Joey stated. Is the stock safety inherently better on the track than what I have planned though is what I'm trying to question. What I've heard from you all and see is that even with proper track safety equipment can still fail and freak accidents can still occur?? Feel free to drop some knowledge on my young punk ass, but also see where I'm coming from if that's possible. I know a lot of you have seen and had more experience than I'll probably ever have.
1.) There really isnt
2.) Yes. All or Nothing. Stock or Fully Prepped. No in betweens. No harness bars. If the stock seat bolstering is the main issue can you bolt in some RX-8 seats and leave everything else stock?
3.) Yes. Accidents will occur, and the people that don't have half-assed safety modifications are the ones most likely to get themselves out of the car in one piece. The importance of the "All or Nothing" track safety modification methodology cannot possibly be overstated. Live it, Love it.
Another good modification to consider is an emergency electrical cutoff switch. Typically a big red switch accessible from the passenger window. If you ever do end up in a wreck a first responder (or you, if you're able) can kill the electrical system to help prevent the chance of a fire.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 05-06-2015
SlimKlim Wrote:You'll want to use a fixed seat mounting set up similar to what Jake/DJ and everyone else is running, I'm not sure if it matters if it's specifically a side mount, I think those just help you get a lower seating position.
I think they call them side mounts at Corbeau from what I'm reading, but I can call and ask
SlimKlim Wrote:Pretty sure the term half cage and roll bar is used somewhat interchangeably. A 10 second google for "Mazda 3 Roll Bars" brought up oodles of results for me. You could presumably just order one then take it to a shop and have it welded in.
Look I don't think anyone is trying to bust your balls about this, and no one is going to tease you for running a Mazda 3 on track.
However, I'm practically begging you to take us seriously when we say that track safety modifications are all or nothing. There are no shortcuts. There are no temporary setups. There are no budget builds. Do it right or don't track. Some jackwagon in a muscle car could punt your little Mazda off the track like a football during an HPDE 1, folding your car up like a taco where you're the delicious ground filling. This isn't a "maybe you'd be safer situation" this is a "prevent yourself from dying a gruesome, fiery death" sort of thing.
I don't even hang around the track that much and I can't even tell you the number of accidents I've witnessed. The drivers with full safety almost always climb out. The ones that don't, usually don't.
I just spent a few minutes from what I'm seeing is nothing for the 2nd gen just some for the 1st gen by: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.autopowerindustries.com/Roll-Bars-Cages/Mazda-3-2004-2008">http://www.autopowerindustries.com/Roll ... -2004-2008</a><!-- m -->. I'll have to call and see if they will fit my car. The 1st and 2nd gen Mazda3's are very similar with parts being interchangeable so I'm hoping it is the same thing.
I believe you and understand the risk.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - ScottyB - 05-06-2015
what Joey said. will you be safe with a stock safety system...most likely yes. will you be safe at even higher speeds with a track safety system...most likely yes. will you get hurt if you build some kind of hybrid, half a track safety system mixed with half your stock safety system...most likely yes.
also keep in mind that running a cage on the street is pretty frowned upon. the odds of you blasting your skull open on the bars in a minor crash on the street without a helmet on increases big time. a cage will most likely negate any curtain airbags you have as well. again, you either go with the street setup or a full track setup when it comes to safety.
it may not have been said yet but you also do not want to run 4 or 5 point belts with a reclining seat. if you roll your body can't lean off to the side to avoid a roof cave-in the way you can with a stock 3 point belt, and your risk of death/spinal injury is higher as a result.
rherold9 Wrote:ScottyB Wrote:- how does your car manage oil control. are you considering a baffled oil pan? with good track tires (200 treadwear or R comps) you will probably pull close to 1G in a continuous turn, and the effects it can have on the equipment can sneak up on you.
I'll figure this out. Yes I'm running 200 treadwear with the RE-11A's now and expect to step up to the RE-71R's when these get heat cycled out (thinking this will happen before I hit wear bars sometime in the Fall). Yes more wear on components with harsher driving.
you certainly don't need to have the car outfitted with a mess of guages but if you're going to do HPDE's regularly its in your best interest to have the basics covered, especially if you plan on doing track weekends in the middle of the summer when your oil is going to be cooking. even though your car is relatively stock and isn't heavily stressed (in terms of hp/liter) you can run the risk of oil starvation at your grip levels or overheating the oil when you're pushing it to redline for 20 minutes at a time, and if you're focused on driving you might miss your dummy light warnings on the dashboard if something does go bad. cheap insurance!
i would do oil pressure just to start. you're already doing a good job of track readying the car if you're running a good synthetic and keeping it topped off.
and hey, look at me....last year i did a track day with my almost stock 120k mile daily driven car. everything was totally fine with just some good pads and fresh oil and brake fluid. but i don't have plans to track it regularly, in fact i may never track that particular car again, so i went into the event with that level of prep in mind.
SlimKlim Wrote:Look I don't think anyone is trying to bust your balls about this, and no one is going to tease you for running a Mazda 3 on track.
so much this. we want to help! good for you wanting to get out there and live the dream. and i have tons of respect for guys that drive the different stuff, i think its awesome (although it can be the hard way to go sometimes because you're blazing a trail nobody has gone down before).
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - SlimKlim - 05-06-2015
ScottyB Wrote:also keep in mind that running a cage on the street is pretty frowned upon. the odds of you blasting your skull open on the bars in a minor crash on the street without a helmet on increases big time. a cage will most likely negate any curtain airbags you have as well. again, you either go with the street setup or a full track setup when it comes to safety.
This is a little off topic but a guy I know picked up a Noble a while ago, I asked to sit in it and my heart just plummetted. My head is brushing the ceiling without a helmet, and the front bar of the cage was about 2" in front of my forehead. Me (or anyone else my height) driving that car would probably be deadly. Like, even just slamming on the brakes on the street probably could've caused a concussion. :?
When you say running a cage on the street do you mean a half-cage or a full 6+ point?
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - ScottyB - 05-06-2015
SlimKlim Wrote:When you say running a cage on the street do you mean a half-cage or a full 6+ point?
full cage, which puts the overhead bars right at your temple and forehead.
that said i don't think a 4 point cage is a great compromise either...you just don't know where those bars are going to move in the cabin in a crash without the additional supports and tie ins throughout the front of the car that you get with a full cage.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Jake - 05-06-2015
A few things -
"Reliability" has zero correlation with "miles on car/motor" in this case. What you want to look into is things like oil starvation, coolant overheating, etc when the car is tracked. For example, Aaron (the other pace car driver) told me about the 2ZZ motor in his Matrix XRS and Celica GTS. It's fine on the street but under HPDE/TT/racing conditions, there is an issue with the oil pump's pickup tube and you can starve the motor. But, there's a $250 aftermarket oil pan that fixes the issue and adds capacity at the same time. That sort of stuff is what we mean when we say "reliability" in this context.
It sounds like your biggest concern right now is staying in place in the seat, to enable you to focus more on learning to drive, correct? Look at what other stock seats you can bolt in to the car. I like the suggestion of RX-8 seats.
In terms of safety:
- Stock Mazda3 seats with Cam-Lock
- RX-8 seats with Cam-Lock
- Fixed-back racing seats with 4-point bolt-in/weld-in roll bar, 6-point harnesses, rollbar padding, HANS, no sliders
- Fixed-back racing seats with full weld-in cage, 6-point harnesses, cage padding, HANS, no sliders
Those are your options. A harness bar is not safe. 4/5/6-point harnesses with any sort of stock or recline-able seat are not safe. Any combination other than what's listed is not safe.
Other thing to consider for your budget here - whatever you do on the driver's side must be replicated on the passenger side. That's a rule for many track orgs and most instructors won't step foot in your car if the safety gear doesn't match side-to-side.
The side vs. bottom-mount thing for racing seats is just how they mount. I prefer side mount because it lets you get the seat a bit lower and I'm tall (with a lot of torso) so any extra clearance helps. Keep in mind you will need floor-mount adapters as well, to go from the stock Mazda mount hole locations to a more generic mounting solution for that side/bottom mount.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - SlimKlim - 05-06-2015
What about something like a 4 point + Door bars?
![[Image: 5508pointCage.jpg]](http://www.jegs.com/images/photos/5508pointCage.jpg)
That would brace the cage against the front of the car, theoretically to keep it from coming forward in the cabin during an accident, but it also wouldn't have scaffolding running by your temple, so you wouldn't be tempting fate every time you ran an errand around town.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Jake - 05-06-2015
Door bars on a street car make it a giant pain to street-car with. That'd be my only concern. Kaan can probably chime in as to how that'd be for safety reasons.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Kaan - 05-06-2015
that's a drag race roll bar... no diagonal in the main hoop is a bad idea.
FYI - a basic road race roll cage will NHRA certify to a much lower number than a lot of "drag" specialty cages that weight more.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - SlimKlim - 05-06-2015
I was just looking for a diagram of one with door bars.
Jake Wrote:For example, Aaron (the other pace car driver) told me about the 2ZZ motor in his Matrix XRS and Celica GTS. It's fine on the street but under HPDE/TT/racing conditions, there is an issue with the oil pump's pickup tube and you can starve the motor. But, there's a $250 aftermarket oil pan that fixes the issue and adds capacity at the same time. That sort of stuff is what we mean when we say "reliability" in this context.
LS1s are a good example of this. 200k+ street miles? No problem. But put them through a few laps on track and they go all explodey.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - ScottyB - 05-06-2015
a surprising number of cars have oiling problems on track which is why i mentioned the oil pan earlier. especially the ones with transverse engines (like economy-based FWD cars) because the pickup's only on one side of the car so you can run it dry holding a corner long enough to the left or right. the manufacturers know your average joe will never come close to the maximum cornering unless they're about to die, so they don't spend the money to baffle the pan from the factory. as an example, proteges can oil starve, as well as focuses and subarus.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - D_Eclipse9916 - 05-06-2015
Whoa this blew up a little more seriously.
For a DD Mazda 3, a roll bar (aka the back-half of a roll cage) is fine along with the proper seats and harnesses. Use SFI padding for the roll bar. Harness bars are just for ricers.
No need for an electrical kill switch, we might as well suggest a fire system if we are going down that route.
Typical safety track prep for an HPDE car is a real water temperature gauge, 2 fixed back seats, the mounting hardware, and a roll bar with harnesses.
FYI- I have 2 sets of G-Force Harnesses for sale and Sparco side mounts for a sidemount seat.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 05-06-2015
I will probably doing exactly what DJ just said. I can always add some things you all mentioned down the line when this is a full on race car in a year that I'm not DDing.
My thoughts are the 1st HPDE in July see where I am at. Look at budget and decide on what to do then.
1. GC Lock
2. I'm looking at either the roll race bar or the u-weld roll bar, same seats, same helmet, gloves????, possibly DJs harnesses if we hasn't sold them by then and seat brackets. Will they fit though? Some sort of fab work needed to make the adapt to my car? Also, start stripping down the car starting with the trunk and moving to the rear passenger area.
I could possibly buy a mount and older phone or tablet to run an app off like Jake runs? Or buy something like a scangauge or ultragauge. I know these aren't 100% accurate, but better than no live monitoring.
About oil starvation I thought I heard something before about it on these car, but it they are partially baffled with baffle plates and other stuff I guess. Found some oe parts from mazda dealership sites to confirm this.
I'm still discussing maintenance stuff, weak points, etc... with a guy who tracks his 3 fairly often down in GA.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Jake - 05-06-2015
The side-mount seat brackets are pretty universal. You just have to make sure whatever seats you buy are also side-mount.
What you need to locate is a floor mount adapter. Something like this, but for your car and not a BMW (image from Bimmerworld):
![[Image: SeatMount_600.jpg]](http://cdn.nexternal.com/bimmerworl/images/SeatMount_600.jpg)
For gauges, you can do the Android + Torque + Bluetooth adapter easily enough. It should be accurate enough to use for now. Do some reading and figure out where others tap for the senders for real gauges though.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 05-06-2015
Jake Wrote:The side-mount seat brackets are pretty universal. You just have to make sure whatever seats you buy are also side-mount.
What you need to locate is a floor mount adapter. Something like this, but for your car and not a BMW (image from Bimmerworld):
For gauges, you can do the Android + Torque + Bluetooth adapter easily enough. It should be accurate enough to use for now. Do some reading and figure out where others tap for the senders for real gauges though.
I think the side mounts purchased under optional are just all I need? I may not be reading their wording right though. Also, it looks like FIA approved seats from Corbeau you can use the sliding mount brackets. Just thought I'd mention it just in case.
Link to seats: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://corbeau.com/fx1-pro.html">http://corbeau.com/fx1-pro.html</a><!-- m -->
Yeah that sounds like a good option for the temporary gauges Jake :thumbup:
Late edit: I think I found what you are saying?: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://corbeau.com/master-seat-brackets">http://corbeau.com/master-seat-brackets</a><!-- m -->
Corbeau Seat Brackets
If you know anything about aftermarket seats and brackets, you’ll know that Corbeau is the best when it comes to our selection and fitment of custom brackets. Our brackets are the most affordable in the industry and are the only brackets that include sliders. When installing an aftermarket seat, the bracket is just as important as the seat. Without the correct bracket you will more than likely run into several issues during the installation process and beyond. Corbeau brackets are designed specifically for Corbeau seats and will not work with any other seat brand.
Pricing:
Adapters Starting with A: $39.00 per Bracket
Edit again: Tried manually finding them and this is what I found: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://corbeau.com/mazda-3-speed3-04-13-seat-brackets.html">http://corbeau.com/mazda-3-speed3-04-13 ... ckets.html</a><!-- m -->
Not sure if they do have unsliding brackets or whatever you are saying. I'll just call them.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - JustinG - 05-06-2015
Lots of people run sliders.....but it is a weak point in a system that should have zero weak points.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://wedgebrackets.com/brackets/mazda-3-speed3-04-13-seat-brackets.html">http://wedgebrackets.com/brackets/mazda ... ckets.html</a><!-- m -->
I assume these are still high quality/affordable options. You bolt your side mounts to the bracket made for your car.
Also, you should look into how much Sparcos are.....from say some one with a discount.....like a person who works for an organization that does HPDE events.....if you know anyone like that, you should hit them up. As long as its available at OGracing.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 05-06-2015
JustinG Wrote:Also, you should look into how much Sparcos are.....from say some one with a discount.....like a person who works for an organization that does HPDE events.....if you know anyone like that, you should hit them up.
Lol. Is that saying that person is someone here? I just know that these have worked well on other Mazda3's and are slightly comfortable for someone who will DD the car for another year or two.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - JustinG - 05-06-2015
I'm just saying, if you know someone you should ask them to check on seats through OG racing.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 05-06-2015
JustinG Wrote:I'm just saying, if you know someone you should ask them to check on seats through OG racing.
Sure, I just don't know who that would be. Private messages are welcome :thumbup: :mrgreen:
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - JPolen01 - 05-06-2015
rherold9 Wrote:Holy shit. Anyone that works for NASA.JustinG Wrote:I'm just saying, if you know someone you should ask them to check on seats through OG racing.
Sure, I just don't know who that would be. Private messages are welcome :thumbup: :mrgreen: