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+--- Thread: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 (/showthread.php?tid=10604)
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 04-13-2015
I don't think I'll ever buy a gun because I've never painted something in my life. I'd rather have someone to do it and do it right! I appreciate the alternatives though, but I also don't have a compressor and North doesn't allow them and I don't think the garage circuits could handle one to be honest. Sam's heater tripped it one time... I'd like to see how it turns out when you do it though. I'm sure posting around and reading will definitely tell you what you are looking for. I'm sure you will be able to do it just with a bit of practice and spraying pattern.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Sully - 04-13-2015
I mean i know people do it and when i worked in the bodyshop, i learned to spray with hvlp guns. I think i could use either and get good results after a bit of practice. Its mainly the cost saving, the gravity feed, the abilty to get cheap parts(like disposable paint cups), the fact that ill have more control over the psi, a smaller hose to drag around with more range( dyc sprayer is 20ft), and not relying on a small electric turbine provinding constant air are some of the reasons im going to test the cheap harbor freight gun.
I didnt know you didnt plan to spray it yourself. So ignore all my comments.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 04-13-2015
Sully Wrote:I mean i know people do it and when i worked in the bodyshop, i learned to spray with hvlp guns. I think i could use either and get good results after a bit of practice. Its mainly the cost saving, the gravity feed, the abilty to get cheap parts(like disposable paint cups), the fact that ill have more control over the psi, a smaller hose to drag around with more range( dyc sprayer is 20ft), and not relying on a small electric turbine provinding constant air are some of the reasons im going to test the cheap harbor freight gun.I think I'll point Scott to this thread may be something good for him to look at haha. All good though. Your logic makes complete sense
I didnt know you didnt plan to spray it yourself. So ignore all my comments.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 05-05-2015
So, in light of some deep pondering with myself. I've decided I'm going to start to get this car actually track prepped the right way. Yes, I've decided I'm going to start making this car into a track track car. A little cheap FWD 150hp 'economy' Mazda3 into something quite fun.
Some reasons why:
1. Cheap parts
2. A lot of parts available (may not be parts at the track, but parts on the interwebs)
3. Does it really matter? (All about image and perception here)
4. I'm really happy with my car. Do I wish I had other cars? Of course. I wish I had tons of others, but that's every other car guy person.
I've added a few simple safety equipment pieces and others to the list for this summer:
1. RaceQuip SA2010 Sportmod Full Face Helmet
2. Cipher Harness Bar
3. Corbeau sliding seat brackets (Driver/Passenger)
4. Corbeau FX1Pro Racing seat (Driver)/FX1 Racing seat (Passenger for more waist width)
5. RaceQuip 5-point harnesses (Driver/Passenger)
6. Slowly strip down interior
![[Image: haters_gonna_hate.jpg]](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-viq-LLKAVbs/UYKw6RVo7bI/AAAAAAAAJXQ/4lXWt9T6iVk/s1600/haters_gonna_hate.jpg)
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Kaan - 05-05-2015
My hate for harness bars will wait for the morning...
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 05-05-2015
Kaan Wrote:My hate for harness bars will wait for the morning...
Oh I agree with you they aren't the best... but no way in hell I'm caging my car right now.
If there are any other options out there I'd like to know them.
Right now, if I flip my car my roof is more than likely going to cave in whether I have a harness bar or not. And if I flip my car I doubt I'll be conscious enough to try to "avoid" a roof caving in on me without a bar and if I am I don't lose consciousness I doubt I'll really have control over it anyways. Then again I have never rolled my car nor do I plan to... so what do I know?
Obviously a harness bar will hold me in place more so in an event of a rollover my body can't 'freely' move out of the way.
Then again there aren't too many cars that flip it in an HPDE1. Me being more secure in the car will help me control the car better theoretically. I'm not the one too push my car overboard when I know this is my DD right now on street tires... Yes there are unforeseen circumstances that could happen, but running a cage on the street is not the best thing either.
It's just bad in general.
I'd like to here examples of life stories of people getting seriously injured due to harness bars holding them during roof collapses or if you know of it occurring.
Also, evidence of roofs actually collapsing than just denting or 'tenting' on newer deemed to be more safe vehicles
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Kaan - 05-06-2015
I'm going to put on my grumpy ass old man pants right now and talk about the 12 years I've been in the tech shed. Things I've seen cant be unseen. Safety equipment is an all or nothing thing. your car is pretty safe without adding stuff (its designed that way)... as soon as you add things like fixed back seats your car becomes unsafe.
Harness Bar Failure... has more to do with side impacts
![[Image: 180166_10150090827896821_653636820_67126...00_n-2.jpg]](http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww144/boondazzle/180166_10150090827896821_653636820_6712672_657300_n-2.jpg)
roof collapse WITH a roll bar (multi plane floor mounts help stop this)
![[Image: 2yy7349.jpg]](http://i34.tinypic.com/2yy7349.jpg)
I've seen my fair share of twisted metal from track events, from full on race cars to street cars split in two... roofs with human indentations, broken seats from hackjob seat back braces, poorly made name brand seat mounts, etc.
for your safety, just buy a helmet and track time. the other stuff isn't needed or safe.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 05-06-2015
Well my problem is my ass not staying planted in my seat in almost any kind of harder driving. That isn't safe and is severely annoying. My seatbelt won't lock manually anymore only automatically.
My thoughts are on how many big accidents happen in HPDE1 from people going overboard? My plan was to have this for the next year as a senior. Graduate then cage and start trailering soon after graduation as possible.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Kaan - 05-06-2015
what class do you intend to run? you just going to do lapping days? I'm not sure where a mazda 3 classes
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Jake - 05-06-2015
rherold9 Wrote:My thoughts are on how many big accidents happen in HPDE1 from people going overboard?
Would you like to talk about the brand-new WRX that flipped nose-over-tail at Summit Point T8? Or the C4 Corvette that lost it and took out the corner station at T1? Or my friend who landed his BMW 335d on top of a retaining wall at T7? We've launched cars over walls before. I've seen an STI go off at VIR on the back straight during a red flag drill at 120 mph and punch a Subaru-sized hole in the treeline. That one was in HPDE 2.
Oh, and don't bother with sliders for your seats, either. Talk to me about a Civic that hit a tree and popped the sliders. Seat moved, guy was fortunate and walked away.
Do what you want, but recognize that the risk is 100% there, even in the "slow groups" as things just happen sometimes. Mazda engineered your car to perform in a certain way as it sits now when you crash it. When you start taking away some of that designed-in safety, you better hope whatever you put in its place manages to function well enough.
I'm not trying to discourage you from coming out, but I've seen a lot, much like Kaan. Just want to make sure you're educated before you rip apart your car.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - navin - 05-06-2015
If you sliding around in your seats, perhaps pick up a CG lock for your seatbelt? <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.cg-lock.com/autocross.html">http://www.cg-lock.com/autocross.html</a><!-- m -->
Or just lock it in if you can.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - SlimKlim - 05-06-2015
rherold9 Wrote:Oh I agree with you they aren't the best... but no way in hell I'm caging my car right now.
A Weld-In 4-point would leave the car streetable, it would become a two seater but its not like you'd be climbing over scaffolding to get in and out of it. Get a 4-point bar, fixed backs, 5 point harnesses and retain the seatbelts for street use. :dunno:
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - D_Eclipse9916 - 05-06-2015
As usual, Ryan will say "I know" even after examples and goes his own way anyway or change his mind and say he knew it all as well.
You might want to talk about how 2 of our own MMers have totalled their cars on track in HPDE (one rolling over multiple times and the roof curled around the roll bar, thank god he had one). If that had been a harness bar instead of roll bar, he wouldn't have been happy.
This reminds me, our club has not had good luck with subarus, both were subarus!
Not that I am not supporting you. We all started with our own project cars (me in my gsx back in the day). You will track it for a couple years and then probably pick up a "pick your race car class" here after fighting the car and running it in a bad class. The Mazda 3 can slot in TT just fine and that's after you go through HPDE. I say go for it.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - ScottyB - 05-06-2015
rherold9 Wrote:Yes, I've decided I'm going to start making this car into a track track car. A little cheap FWD 150hp 'economy' Mazda3 into something quite fun.
cool! what do the other mazda3 track drivers do to keep their cars reliable? use the knowledge of others that have gone before you - don't try to reinvent the wheel. where are the weak points? some thoughts on the prep:
- how does your car manage oil control. are you considering a baffled oil pan? with good track tires (200 treadwear or R comps) you will probably pull close to 1G in a continuous turn, and the effects it can have on the equipment can sneak up on you.
- good accurate gauges are a requirement for any serious track car. oil pressure, oil temp, coolant temp (the stock gauges are not accurate), possibly battery voltage.
- heat management for the engine and brakes. might want to consider ducting for the front rotors which can also help the wheel bearings survive longer.
- do you have a full face helmet? gloves?
- can you swap a different OEM mazda seat into your car that will give you better bolstering but retain the stock features?
and the biggest one
- are you willing to push the car off a cliff and watch it crumple into a tin can, right now? never, ever take a car on track that you aren't willing to total, doubly so if its your only car. if you're driving with apprehension the entire time you're never going to enjoy yourself, and what's the point of that? keep in mind, its not always what you do! shit happens:
[youtube]GYc8ET6tWvw[/youtube]
[youtube]Wa5veVYcHcs[/youtube]
Kaan Wrote:Safety equipment is an all or nothing thing
this. it works as a system. if you start mixing componentry you're bringing in variables that disrupt the safety benefits of the intended system. you either go all in, or keep it stock with the safety stuff. your car is slow enough right now that you can probably leave it be and spend the money on track time to actually get fast enough to where it would be a true benefit to have the car caged and belted.
a decent google search will probably get you all the feedback you want to see on what happens with fixed back seats in a non-caged car. or listen to the alumni here, there is a TON of combined experience amongst your fellow MMers. Kaan has seen it all and there are probably half a dozen of us actively posting here on the forum that are either active/retired racers or instructors that have come up through the HPDE ranks and saw for themselves how to do it the right way.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 05-06-2015
Just thought I'd say I didn't just slap a list together oh this sounds good moment. I read on several forums about this same discussion and since I know you guys have spent years around this I thought it would bring up good discussion :thumbup: . There are just many many variables between cars original safety, mods, situations, etc...
Kaan Wrote:what class do you intend to run? you just going to do lapping days? I'm not sure where a mazda 3 classes
Not sure where a Mazda3 would class at all. HPDE4 or somewhere in TT as DJ mentioned?. Speed3's do quite well in Grand Am/IMSA Continental Tire Sports Car Series so the platform is decent it's just they have another 100+ hp/tq than I do, but weigh about 400 more pounds than a sedan regular 3.
Jake Wrote:Do what you want, but recognize that the risk is 100% there, even in the "slow groups" as things just happen sometimes. Mazda engineered your car to perform in a certain way as it sits now when you crash it. When you start taking away some of that designed-in safety, you better hope whatever you put in its place manages to function well enough.
I'm not trying to discourage you from coming out, but I've seen a lot, much like Kaan. Just want to make sure you're educated before you rip apart your car.
Yes, that's what I want discussion wise is too recognize risks, what I'm getting myself into, and possible other options, such as, Navin(don't know you real name)/Joey mentioned. Mazda made the safety of the car ideal for road conditions, but getting into track conditions is a different ball game. I agree with you. Everything is very situational and the harness bar is temporary where I 'think' I could be fine with for a year or two with 4+ HPDE weekends as I don't plan on running more than a street tire or pushing my car as I don't have another car for a daily. I understand that there a freak things that could occur that are out of my control. What I've seen from these posts here and some accidents on track. Freak accidents will happen whether I'm using stock safety measures or not. Would I be safer with a full track set-up? Maybe. Would I be safer with stock set-up? Maybe.
Do you think then side mounts just bolted in are the best over the sliding?
navin Wrote:If you sliding around in your seats, perhaps pick up a CG lock for your seatbelt? <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.cg-lock.com/autocross.html">http://www.cg-lock.com/autocross.html</a><!-- m -->
Or just lock it in if you can.
Won't lock by itself anymore and I don't know why.... Thank you for the option. Cons of it getting jammed in an accident or something of that nature??
SlimKlim Wrote:A Weld-In 4-point would leave the car streetable, it would become a two seater but its not like you'd be climbing over scaffolding to get in and out of it. Get a 4-point bar, fixed backs, 5 point harnesses and retain the seatbelts for street use. :dunno:
Hmm. Good option. Would that be considered just a roll bar or half cage? Also, I was reading what you said about using the seatbelts on for street use on other forums. That's what I think I'll do if I go through with this. Cons of this set-up are?
I also don't know of any Mazda3 specific shops so getting one custom made could be quite expensive? Any directions to places near Richmond or HBurg to do this would be nice. (NOVA? Maryland?)
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:As usual, Ryan will say "I know" even after examples and goes his own way anyway or change his mind and say he knew it all as well.
You might want to talk about how 2 of our own MMers have totalled their cars on track in HPDE (one rolling over multiple times and the roof curled around the roll bar, thank god he had one). If that had been a harness bar instead of roll bar, he wouldn't have been happy.
This reminds me, our club has not had good luck with subarus, both were subarus!
Not that I am not supporting you. We all started with our own project cars (me in my gsx back in the day). You will track it for a couple years and then probably pick up a "pick your race car class" here after fighting the car and running it in a bad class. The Mazda 3 can slot in TT just fine and that's after you go through HPDE. I say go for it.
The point of this was to discuss what I mentioned early. And of course I will go my way and do what I want. Doesn't everyone? I for sure hear people out on what they say no doubt. I do admit to things I do at times and if I don't it does not mean I don't realize it. You act like I do this all the time. I don't know what is with you calling me out on a lot of what I post. I don't go around doing it to you. It is pretty annoying and gets old pretty fast. I also don't need to conform to what you think is right when you make posts on what I say. Sure some of what you say is correct I get it.
I guess I'm glad a don't own a Subaru then. I'm not sure what will happen in the future, but right now I for sure what to give this car a run for its money and see what it can do. What TT would I even be in after HPDE? That's probably almost 4 years down the road so it would probably change. Just food for thought now. Thank you for the support!
I appreciate the concern for my safety and you don't want to see me hurt or make a mistake. I also thank some of you for saying that I should do it or not trying to say no. I know this isn't a 'normal' or you see everyday track car.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - ScottyB - 05-06-2015
rherold9 Wrote:Not sure where a Mazda3 would class at all. HPDE4 or somewhere in TT as DJ mentioned?
just for clarification HDPE4 isn't a class based on vehicles, its a level you graduate to based on track driving experience and acumen. there are GTR's in HPDE1 and Civics in HPDE4 and vice versa. :thumbup:
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Jake - 05-06-2015
Just to clarify classing - the HPDE ranks of 1 through 4 are simply based on your experience level. There's no sort of classing by car in HPDE as it's just school. HPDE 4 is where you'll end up if you go through the schools and want to instruct, or just turn laps with other very experienced drivers with no sort of formal competition. If you see yourself wanting to drive fast, learn to drive even faster, and kinda stop there, then do whatever you want re: mods because all that matters is that you like how the car handles.
Once you get through HPDE (after some experience in HPDE 3, you can consider where you want to go next) you can move on to instructing, TTing, or racing. Each will require you obtain a license and one license does not grant you the ability to do either of the other two things.
For Time Trials, your car will start out with a "base class" which is how it's classed as it rolled out of the factory when it was new. From there, every mod you have will add points to the car. You get 19 points to play with, and at 20 points, you move up a class.
Look here for rules and classing - you can see what your mods add up to. Some mods are free and cost you no points:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="https://www.nasaproracing.com/rules">https://www.nasaproracing.com/rules</a><!-- m -->
Click on "2015 TT Rules" midway down the page. Page 23 of the PDF has your car listed as a TTF car bone-stock (NASA calls this "BTM" or "Base Trim Model"). From there, keep reading and you will find out what each mod adds for points.
I know you're still very early in to the track thing with this car, but I think it would be worth adding up your points and figuring out where the car fits into Time Trial classing. It may change your attitude about various mods you have done or want to do - the "do it once, spend it once, do it right" mantra applies here in spades. You typically will want to be at the "top" of your class versus the bottom of the next-higher class (so TTF +18 would theoretically have you more competitive than TTE +0 or +1).
As far as "real" racing - TT isn't "racing racing" as you aren't considered wheel-to-wheel, just FYI - you'd have to see where the Maz3 fits in. Not quite sure where it would fit off the top of my head. Frankly, if you get to that point with your track driving career and want to go racing, you will end up building a car that fits into an already-established class. That's just how it goes.
Good news is that you have a very good starting point for continued HPDEing and Time Trial if you so choose.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 05-06-2015
ScottyB Wrote:cool! what do the other mazda3 track drivers do to keep their cars reliable?
This is a good question and one I will have to do some research on. This car has only 30k miles right now so it is quite young without hoping too worry about reliability right now. Definitely something to look into though.
ScottyB Wrote:use the knowledge of others that have gone before you - don't try to reinvent the wheel. where are the weak points?
I will look into this as well! :thumbup:
ScottyB Wrote:some thoughts on the prep:
- how does your car manage oil control. are you considering a baffled oil pan? with good track tires (200 treadwear or R comps) you will probably pull close to 1G in a continuous turn, and the effects it can have on the equipment can sneak up on you.
I'll figure this out. Yes I'm running 200 treadwear with the RE-11A's now and expect to step up to the RE-71R's when these get heat cycled out (thinking this will happen before I hit wear bars sometime in the Fall). Yes more wear on components with harsher driving.
ScottyB Wrote:- good accurate gauges are a requirement for any serious track car. oil pressure, oil temp, coolant temp (the stock gauges are not accurate), possibly battery voltage.
Right now this isn't of my greatest concerns because I'm only in HPDE's. Will look into this as I get more serious!
ScottyB Wrote:- heat management for the engine and brakes. might want to consider ducting for the front rotors which can also help the wheel bearings survive longer.
Yes I need to remove my foglights sometime and fab together some air ducts. My bandaid for this for the time being was the bigger brakes.
ScottyB Wrote:- do you have a full face helmet? gloves?
Helmet is on the mods list. Gloves were something I was not thinking about in HPDE
ScottyB Wrote:- can you swap a different OEM mazda seat into your car that will give you better bolstering but retain the stock features?
Unfortunately Mazdaspeed3 seats aren't much different from what I can tell and I have no idea if they mount correctly. May be something to look into.
ScottyB Wrote:and the biggest one
- are you willing to push the car off a cliff and watch it crumple into a tin can, right now? never, ever take a car on track that you aren't willing to total, doubly so if its your only car. if you're driving with apprehension the entire time you're never going to enjoy yourself, and what's the point of that? keep in mind, its not always what you do!
Yes. I realize I can easily move on to other things at anytime. I'm sure I'll miss the damn car a lot, but it's just a Mazda3 in the end! I was not trying to make it seem like I'm going to drive with apprehension as some people know I do try to push the car, but within reasonable limits that I feel I'm ready for. With HPDE's my goal is to start out slow and build up to what I'm comfortable with not just drive apprehensively.
ScottyB Wrote:Kaan Wrote:Safety equipment is an all or nothing thing
this. it works as a system. if you start mixing componentry you're bringing in variables that disrupt the safety benefits of the intended system. you either go all in, or keep it stock with the safety stuff. your car is slow enough right now that you can probably leave it be and spend the money on track time to actually get fast enough to where it would be a true benefit to have the car caged and belted.
a decent google search will probably get you all the feedback you want to see on what happens with fixed back seats in a non-caged car. or listen to the alumni here, there is a TON of combined experience amongst your fellow MMers. Kaan has seen it all and there are probably half a dozen of us actively posting here on the forum that are either active/retired racers or instructors that have come up through the HPDE ranks and saw for themselves how to do it the right way.
Ah yes, I understand the point. I know there is an argument here to be made. What my thoughts were is I'm going to slowly move up I'd like to have pieces in place for a later time. And the part about my car being slow is the reason why I think I'll be okay with what I have planned out. Something like Navin said may be my best option or what Joey stated. Is the stock safety inherently better on the track than what I have planned though is what I'm trying to question. What I've heard from you all and see is that even with proper track safety equipment can still fail and freak accidents can still occur?? Feel free to drop some knowledge on my young punk ass, but also see where I'm coming from if that's possible. I know a lot of you have seen and had more experience than I'll probably ever have.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 05-06-2015
Good information Jake and Scott. I guess I'll have to look into it then to see what I plan on doing and done has affected my classing if I decide to TT. Yeah you are right Jake, I have to build to what classes allow me in real racing or open wheel racing as you stated. That's several years away if I ever feel like I would like to do that or if I'm even fast enough for that haha. Right now I'm just trying to learn and move up and get the car ready for it as well! I have no idea how the car will even perform at TT basis. Hopefully it isn't awful for the mods done to it or planned to do to it.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - SlimKlim - 05-06-2015
rherold9 Wrote:Freak accidents will happen whether I'm using stock safety measures or not. Would I be safer with a full track set-up? Yes. Would I be safer with stock set-up? Yes.
rherold9 Wrote:Do you think then side mounts just bolted in are the best over the sliding?
You'll want to use a fixed seat mounting set up similar to what Jake/DJ and everyone else is running, I'm not sure if it matters if it's specifically a side mount, I think those just help you get a lower seating position.
rherold9 Wrote:SlimKlim Wrote:A Weld-In 4-point would leave the car streetable, it would become a two seater but its not like you'd be climbing over scaffolding to get in and out of it. Get a 4-point bar, fixed backs, 5 point harnesses and retain the seatbelts for street use. :dunno:
Hmm. Good option. Would that be considered just a roll bar or half cage? Also, I was reading what you said about using the seatbelts on for street use on other forums. That's what I think I'll do if I go through with this. Cons of this set-up are?
I also don't know of any Mazda3 specific shops so getting one custom made could be quite expensive? Any directions to places near Richmond or HBurg to do this would be nice. (NOVA? Maryland?)
Pretty sure the term half cage and roll bar is used somewhat interchangeably. A 10 second google for "Mazda 3 Roll Bars" brought up oodles of results for me. You could presumably just order one then take it to a shop and have it welded in.
Look I don't think anyone is trying to bust your balls about this, and no one is going to tease you for running a Mazda 3 on track.
However, I'm practically begging you to take us seriously when we say that track safety modifications are all or nothing. There are no shortcuts. There are no temporary setups. There are no budget builds. Do it right or don't track. Some jackwagon in a muscle car could punt your little Mazda off the track like a football during an HPDE 1, folding your car up like a taco where you're the delicious ground filling. This isn't a "maybe you'd be safer situation" this is a "prevent yourself from dying a gruesome, fiery death" sort of thing.
I don't even hang around the track that much and I can't even tell you the number of accidents I've witnessed. The drivers with full safety almost always climb out. The ones that don't, usually don't.