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+--- Thread: legitimate political question (Ron Paul) (/showthread.php?tid=6350)
- white_2kgt - 08-28-2007
Why should I who went to college paid off college loans have to pay MORE % in income taxes than some mindless dick wad who jacked off every day in high school and worked at quickie burger after graduation? Again why should I have to support said mindless dick wad and their KID which they had and can't nor ever COULD afford? Explain that oh so wise one. I worked for my single family house, race cars and just so happened to have the forethought to marry a woman who is capable of working a good paying job. Sure some marry ONLY for love, others marry for love and money why should I be peanalized? Don't you think I'd love to sit at home all day long watching TV and eating food bought with food stamps? Sounds great to me! Where do I sign up!
And for the record yes, I think bitches kids that jumped across the border and popped a squat should be sent back as well, thats a bullshit law and needs to be repealed.
- .RJ - 08-28-2007
At least we'll never be confused on what Chad's opinion really is :lol:
- John - 08-28-2007
white_2kgt Wrote:And for the record yes, I think bitches kids that jumped across the border and popped a squat should be sent back as well, thats a bullshit law and needs to be repealed.
I disagree - we need to implement a Worker Exchange program. If you are "unemployed" and thinking to collect welfare entitlements, then you need to be put in the Worker Exchange Program (unless you are legitimately disabled and cannot work). We ship you off to El Salvador or China, and we get in return somebody who really wants to work from that country - somebody that has the desire for the American Dream. No more excuses for lazy Americans - time to exchange the bottom percentile for people who really want an opportunity (contrary to popular belief, we actually have a labor shortage in this country).
- ViPER1313 - 08-28-2007
white_2kgt Wrote:Why should I who went to college paid off college loans have to pay MORE % in income taxes than some mindless dick wad who jacked off every day in high school and worked at quickie burger after graduation? Again why should I have to support said mindless dick wad and their KID which they had and can't nor ever COULD afford? Explain that oh so wise one. I worked for my single family house, race cars and just so happened to have the forethought to marry a woman who is capable of working a good paying job. Sure some marry ONLY for love, others marry for love and money why should I be peanalized? Don't you think I'd love to sit at home all day long watching TV and eating food bought with food stamps? Sounds great to me! Where do I sign up!My argument is not that you didn't work hard for the things you have or that some people don't abuse the system - my argument is that poverty, a person's social class and their economic well-being are more complicated than them being "mindless dick[s]." Most lower and lower-middle class people are hard workers who deserve a break when it comes to things such as health care and taxes. Just because some people are baby making idiots and some abuse the system doesn't mean there shouldn't be a support net for a hard working blue class factory worker who got laid off from his job due to an economic downturn. It doesn't mean children of idiot parents should be malnourished, sickly and denied opportunities to better themselves due to a lack of affordable health care or good public education.
And for the record yes, I think bitches kids that jumped across the border and popped a squat should be sent back as well, thats a bullshit law and needs to be repealed.
If you don't believe in the fact that your success in life has to do with more than you being a super-special hard worker, what sort of educational opportunities did you have as a child? Now what opportunities did this so called "mindless dick wad who jacked off every day in high school and worked at quickie burger after graduation" have? Did you grow up in a lower class neighborhood? Did you have to work 6 hours every day after school since the age of 14 to help your parents pay their rent? Not everyone who is poor is a mindless dick who wants to mooch off the government - a lot of it has to do with the area they live in, what their parent's social status was and, sadly, their race and gender.
I just wish you would realize how well you and I really have things and not have such a condescending attitude towards everyone who isn't as well off.
- John - 08-28-2007
I am really sick and tired of everybody complaining about making health care available to everybody. The true reasons of our high costs aren't because of the insurance industry, it's because of the FDA, tort law structures, and entitlement mentalities. Our poverty level is a joke in this country - drive through any ghetto or trailer park and see how many people have newer cars, plasma TVs, and other bling. There are truly legitimate people below the real poverty line, but for the most part, most of our "poor" people are far from such.
- BLINGMW - 08-28-2007
Evan Wrote:interesting, id like to hear why that would be the case, since a huge percentage of the price of a product would now go to the gubment, the production costs would have to come down significantly somehow if you are going to keep the same prices
The good news is that not only does the FairTax replace the income tax, it replaces the embedded taxes that aren't so obvious, as well as significantly reducing tax compliance costs for a business. Here's a fairly short explanation:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://economics.about.com/od/lettersonthefairtax/a/fairtax_embed.htm">http://economics.about.com/od/letterson ... _embed.htm</a><!-- m -->
this one is pretty dead on too, with similar numbers:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/commentary/wb/wb/xp-51569">http://www.roanoke.com/editorials/comme ... b/xp-51569</a><!-- m -->
Evan Wrote:A consumption based tax is a regressive tax and affects lower income people much more than higher income (relative to their income of course)
Only when you make the mistake of assuming it works like other consumption based taxes. A rebate is given to EVERY household, based on the number of people that live there. The FAQ here is pretty decent:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_faq_answers#3">http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer? ... _answers#3</a><!-- m -->
And question #49 has a nice pretty graph too, pointing out that it IS still a progressive tax. Those below the poverty line should be completely relieved of their tax burden. But this isn't at the suffering of everyone else. All income brackets benefit. And savings is encouraged, which is something we could use since last year the average personal savings of Americans was NEGATIVE, for the first time since the great depression.
I also like John's worker exchange program. :lol:
- white_2kgt - 08-28-2007
ViPER1313 Wrote:white_2kgt Wrote:Why should I who went to college paid off college loans have to pay MORE % in income taxes than some mindless dick wad who jacked off every day in high school and worked at quickie burger after graduation? Again why should I have to support said mindless dick wad and their KID which they had and can't nor ever COULD afford? Explain that oh so wise one. I worked for my single family house, race cars and just so happened to have the forethought to marry a woman who is capable of working a good paying job. Sure some marry ONLY for love, others marry for love and money why should I be peanalized? Don't you think I'd love to sit at home all day long watching TV and eating food bought with food stamps? Sounds great to me! Where do I sign up!My argument is not that you didn't work hard for the things you have or that some people don't abuse the system - my argument is that poverty, a person's social class and their economic well-being are more complicated than them being "mindless dick[s]." Most lower and lower-middle class people are hard workers who deserve a break when it comes to things such as health care and taxes. Just because some people are baby making idiots and some abuse the system doesn't mean there shouldn't be a support net for a hard working blue class factory worker who got laid off from his job due to an economic downturn. It doesn't mean children of idiot parents should be malnourished, sickly and denied opportunities to better themselves due to a lack of affordable health care or good public education.
And for the record yes, I think bitches kids that jumped across the border and popped a squat should be sent back as well, thats a bullshit law and needs to be repealed.
If you don't believe in the fact that your success in life has to do with more than you being a super-special hard worker, what sort of educational opportunities did you have as a child? Now what opportunities did this so called "mindless dick wad who jacked off every day in high school and worked at quickie burger after graduation" have? Did you grow up in a lower class neighborhood? Did you have to work 6 hours every day after school since the age of 14 to help your parents pay their rent? Not everyone who is poor is a mindless dick who wants to mooch off the government - a lot of it has to do with the area they live in, what their parent's social status was and, sadly, their race and gender.
I just wish you would realize how well you and I really have things and not have such a condescending attitude towards everyone who isn't as well off.
You really don't know jack shit about me, I'm a product of public school and a lumber jacks kid. I worked my fucking ass off since the time I was 12 until I went to college at a sawmill. I know what the hell hard work is and I made damn sure I made something of myself so I'd NEVER had to do that sort of shit again just to afford a double wide and el camino. I know PLENTY of these 'poor' people who just need a little help to get them back on their feet. I've seen plenty of them suck at the tit of anyone who would offer a hand time and time again. No, not everyone who is poor is worthless but they sure didn't just fall out of the poor tree to get there.
- Ginger - 08-28-2007
Hell - get in line for checks from the government if you're poor! THAT works, right Adam? Have you even taken a cursory glance at the PRIVATE welfare available in the country? Have you looked at the sucess rates of these programs, which become involved in the lives of those in need, versus the passive handout, freeriding invitational disaster that is government programming?
And boo fucking hoo. Guess what? Not everybody gets the same opportunities and it's not decreed that they should be granted them, made equal with everybody else at childhood, or otherwise let leech on those that were fortunate. There are channels through which poor people can suceed - federally subsidized education systems actually impede those kinds opportunities. Not to mention your government invasions always end up with negative externalities well wishers never even thought of... what the fuck is so hard about a hands off attitude?
- .RJ - 08-28-2007
asteele2 Wrote:what the fuck is so hard about a hands off attitude?
Because that doesnt get election votes.
Do you have any links about the private welfare thing? I'd be curious to read more about it.
- Ginger - 08-28-2007
I got the info from a lecture last semester, my notes probably suck, but I'll look at them. I could probably also get a copy of the lecture with the citation notes, too. I'll look into it.
- ScottyB - 08-28-2007
John Wrote:Our poverty level is a joke in this country - drive through any ghetto or trailer park and see how many people have newer cars, plasma TVs, and other bling.
kind of OT but i recall reading a factoid (sorry, no link) that if you make above $30,000 a year you are in the top 1% of wealthiest people in the world. obviously it's all relative, but food for thought.
- .RJ - 08-28-2007
ScottyB Wrote:kind of OT but i recall reading a factoid (sorry, no link) that if you make above $30,000 a year you are in the top 1% of wealthiest people in the world.
"wealth" in many underdeveloped countries is pretty distorted though comapred to what we're seeing.
Still the median income in the US isnt that big - I make a decent salary, but 40% of it goes off to taxes/ss/medicare/etc.... it sucks.
- REED - 08-28-2007
this is kinda off topic, but has to do with poverty and the working poor in general. I just finished a book called Nickled and Dimed. Now I won't try and hide the fact that the author is pretty liberal, but the book still was able to bring home the point that it is almost impossible to survive on $6-$7 an hour, never mind mininum wage. I just thought it was pretty eye opening to how hard it is for so many people to survive. maybe it was just my naivety, but i just assumed that working for $7+ an hour was at least enough to get by on, maybe not comfortably, but not sleeping in your car.
also, something else to take into consideration, a huge part of the author's struggles were caused by the cost of housing. esentially - housing costs were/are rising so quickly that low-income people could not afford to keep up. With developers gobbling up land and low-cost housing left and right to develop into super-sweet condos and apartmetns the supply of affordable housing was vanishing.
ok, well i've had a couple to many beers so i hope this wasnt a complete run on sentance and i didn't get off on two many tangets, but i would still highly recommend that anyone, conservative or liberal read the book
- Ginger - 08-29-2007
That sounds a little inspecific. I know plenty of places where friends from elementary school are already buying their first homes... without a college education (at 22, 23, and 24). There are also plenty of places where you don't need to make tons of money to get by. Until recently my fresh out of college girlfriend was making more than her mom (who raised two kids and owns a home and property). Can you get by on $6/hr in NOVA? No - but well, that's a personal problem.
What do folks expect when they talk about the "injustices" of people making so little money (FYI - this is also a typical Union tactic used to raise wages for union members at the expense of everybody else and keep non union labor out of the market... cheated non union folks out of competition. How fair is that)? A lot of people don't realize that wages ARE productivity - so what do people expect? Should these low wage earners be compensated for productivtiy that they never acheived? Why should everybody else pay for people that aren't making what they're being handed? Consider the repurcussions - if you fill in the gap between wages earned and what it takes to "get by" (and btw, who decides what it takes? What's the line? Sounds pretty obnoxiously philosophical). People lose incentive to EARN the difference if they're just handed it. Don't believe me? Unemployment programs are a perfect example - programs that make it easy for unemployed workers to just collect a check always have more "clients" than those that place time limits on unemployment collections and force people to find jobs [I can give examples of this, but it's easier on everybody to take my word for it].
But really - justify GIVING people money that they aren't earning.
- ScottyB - 08-29-2007
.RJ Wrote:"wealth" in many underdeveloped countries is pretty distorted though comapred to what we're seeing.
totally agree, that's why i mentioned in the last sentence how it's all pretty relative. don't mind me, just passin through.....
- JackoliciousLegs - 08-29-2007
wow... what a spiderweb of tangents... I guess we're slowly getting down to it. Some people think that we have a society where the lowest of the low income folks can easily get to the top of the bracket. Some people disagree. I think it's that assumption that's leading some of us to the conclusion that we mustn't meddle in the affairs of lower classers. They can work it out for themselves just like we do.
I hope I got that right. Now for a little rant.
There were a couple of comments that I noticed along the way. Scotty, 30k is a lot. Average per capita in Uganda is like $300. The living wage *south* of San Jose is hovering around $24 per hour.
Chad, you seem the most radical to me. Perhaps it's your verbiage, but I'll try to respond to your comments in a way that will at least let you know why I hold my current beliefs. I grew up back and forth between VA and Africa. In both places, my family came into contact with people living below the respective poverty lines. In Uganda, I don't need to elaborate on the situation, but people are motivated to change their lifestyle. In the US, I found more of a mixture of opinion among the lower class. Some felt an urgent need to remove themselves from poverty. Some felt the need to produce only what was adequate. Why did they only do the minimum? I don't believe it was because of goverment handouts allowing them to do that. I believe that it was because of the difficulty of reaching the next financial rung. As our society expands, we are seeing a widening gap between the social classes. How do we fill the gap? Some say (as I believe you are), that to motivate the lower class, we need to literally light a fire under their asses. That will get them moving. Some say, there should be positive reinforcement and as much structure to filling that middle class as there is to filling the upper class from the upper middle.
As I attended my middle class public school in the US, I found that there is a CLEAR path defined for you. If you drop out of that path, then fuck off. You don't deserve shit. If you turn into trailer trash out of FFX Co Public Schools (the number 2 public school system in the country), what else can we do? If you do complete it, like the majority of students, you get shuffled into a good public state school (like JMU). From there, the sky's the limit. Get your doctorate? Travel? Make money? Whatever you want because you followed through that established social system.
Lower income portions of society are often overlooked because they contribute less. Why can't that path be available for low income areas? The idea behind taxes are that they are distributed to those who need it at the time. Same principle behind Universal Healthcare. Same principle behind public education. Chicago for example... the south side of Chicago contributes less than the north. We both pay local taxes to the same local govt, but just because a kid grows up on the south side doesn't mean he shouldn't be treated as well as a kid on the northside. It wasn't his parents choice to live there. They'd live in a safer neighborhood if they could afford one. They lived where they could.
My best friend through elementary school and middle school moved away in high school because his family couldn't afford the rent in my neighborhood. Both parents and both elder children worked to support the family. It wasn't enough. *That* wasn't enough.
Chad, I understand what you're saying about keeping your money to yourself, but you've been given the luxury to make that choice. Some people truly need help.
At least I understand Fair Tax now. I still don't dig the socially conservative viewpoint though. I don't think I'm a socialist. I just think that I believe that healthcare shouldn't be for profit. Nor should education. Nor should communications. Although, since we live in a capitalist state, we should allow for private entrants into all fields.
- Ginger - 08-29-2007
Of fuck all - let gov't structure everything 'cause life isn't fair.
*gives up*
I've got to go ask my congressman if it's OK to go take a dump.
- CaptainHenreh - 08-29-2007
asteele2 Wrote:I've got to go ask my congressman if it's OK to go take a dump.
No, you've got it all wrong. You've got to go ask your congressman if he'll have the Collective United States pinch off tiny percentages of a loaf for you, because you either aren't able to take a dump, or are too lazy to get off the computer and make your way to the toilet.
- white_2kgt - 08-29-2007
I guess we all come from different backgrounds but growing up I was exposed to these 'trailer trash' no goods on a daily basis. They sit at home on Sunday night drinking liquor smoking weed and beating their 'wife' and then are to hungover or in JAIL on Monday morning to come into work. When you work a job like that if you don't show, you don't get paid. This was the NORM not the exception. These are people that live across the street from where they work, they had to b/c they had NO car, also their 'wife' was really their live in girlfriend b/c if they got married the state sponsored assistance welfare/food stamps would stop, I tell you this so you understand I know who these people are, they are also given the chance to work extra hours to make money to maybe buy a car, do they do it? No, they work just enough to pay a few bills, buy some beer/liquor/weed and live it up on the weekends eating food bought with food stamps. So I hope you understand why I get so god damn pissed when the democrats start talking about more and more handout programs and how all these 'disenfranchised' poor people just need a little help. Give a mouse a cookie and he wants a glass of milk I say, you want to live like a sloth, fine, I could really care less, just don't make me pay for it.
- .RJ - 08-29-2007
JackoliciousLegs Wrote:As our society expands, we are seeing a widening gap between the social classes. How do we fill the gap?
I have to ask though, why do we (the collective population) need to fill this social gap?
This may rub some people the wrong way but we need people that want to work low skill, low paying jobs. Who's going to collect the trash, work at the DMV, and work road construction? I'm only talking about public service, tax supported jobs - I dont care if you're too lazy to mow your lawn and clean your house.