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+--- Thread: 9/11 + 5 years (/showthread.php?tid=4752)
- Feersty - 09-11-2006
G.Irish Wrote:At any rate we must capture and kill those in terrorist organizations at every opportunity while simultaneously practicing intelligent foreign policy that will lessen hateful sentiment against us and our goals. We've got to fight a war of ideas to remove popular support for extremism just as much as we need to wage war to eliminate enemy combatants.
Plus 1.
- Goodspeed - 09-11-2006
Well put G, so far though it seems like we haven't done much to eliminate those ideals. Religion isn't the problem, its the weapon being used by the few to spread their twisted ideas to the many. People flock to them out of desperation and lack of education. If we put the hundreds of billions we've put into blowing shit up in Iraq into actually helping to provide for a better quality of life for these people, we'd be seeing much better results...instead of...the negative ones we're seeing now. Ultimately though its not that easy, theres the massively corrupt middle eastern governments to deal with that also inhibit change and modernization, how we deal with them is another story that I honestly have no ideas/answers for.
- G.Irish - 09-11-2006
Goodspeed Wrote:If we put the hundreds of billions we've put into blowing shit up in Iraq into actually helping to provide for a better quality of life for these people, we'd be seeing much better results...instead of...the negative ones we're seeing nowEh, you can't improve the quality of life when you've got people blowing stuff up and killing people daily. The truth of the matter is that we made some military mistakes at the beginning of this endeavor that gave the insurgency enough room to build momentum.
We've actually spent a ton of money on rebuilding their infrastructure. When you talk about providing better quality of life that's not something that we can necessarily give them, you can merely give them a start that will allow them to build it for themselves.
Quote:Ultimately though its not that easy, theres the massively corrupt middle eastern governments to deal with that also inhibit change and modernization, how we deal with them is another story that I honestly have no ideas/answers for.
This is key. It is a massively complex and multi-faceted problem that will take several different approaches to solve. To put it simply, its not the kind of problem we can solve with just a hammer, nor can we solve it with an olive branch or a handout. Its going to take many different tools to address many different issues.
- Goodspeed - 09-11-2006
G.Irish Wrote:Eh, you can't improve the quality of life when you've got people blowing stuff up and killing people daily.
Viscious circle. Hopefully it'll be broken...someday
G.Irish Wrote:The truth of the matter is that we made some military mistakes at the beginning of this endeavor that gave the insurgency enough room to build momentum.
Yep. If Rumsfeld had gotten his head atleast partially out of his ass he would've listened to Powell's recommendation (you know...the guy that led this thing the first time around) and sent more troops to Afghanistan, this would've possibly been over. Now no one in the administration can admit they were wrong for fear of looking weak. It really says something when military leader after military leader steps down in the wake of all this. And as smart and talented as Condi is, she's Bush's lapdog.
G.Irish Wrote:We've actually spent a ton of money on rebuilding their infrastructure. When you talk about providing better quality of life that's not something that we can necessarily give them, you can merely give them a start that will allow them to build it for themselves.
This is true...unfortunately the whole society of the region is so psychologically backwards that it may take a looooong time before they start making changes for themselves. They've had to go through as much change in fifty years as the rest of the world has in 800.
G.Irish Wrote:This is key. It is a massively complex and multi-faceted problem that will take several different approaches to solve. To put it simply, its not the kind of problem we can solve with just a hammer, nor can we solve it with an olive branch or a handout. Its going to take many different tools to address many different issues.
Sigh....this is the worst part. Its when people realise this that they say "screw it, let them nuke eachother" and I sort of sympathize with that. Trust me after living there its very frustrating being around this 24/7
- WRXtranceformed - 09-11-2006
I was smoking weed, taking product inventory in a storage trailer in a rental facility for the company I worked for, listening to the radio when it happened. Talk about a buzz kill!
- Ryan T - 09-11-2006
9/11 is like...the milestone of our time. All of our grandparents remember where they were when Pearl Harbor was bombed, our parents remember where they were the day Kennedy was shot...everyone here remembers where they were when 9/11 happened. I wonder how long before this day falls to the wayside. Not necessarilly on a personal basis, but on a national kind of basis. 5 years after we pulled out of Vietnam or after WW2 ended classrooms nation wide were saying "5 years later, where are we now and how are we doing." Much like we are today. But all of those dates have fallen away. I wonder how long this one will stick with us? Regardless, I hope this is the one and only milestone remembrance in our lifetimes.
- Evan - 09-11-2006
G.Irish Wrote:That's why Evan said "fascist muslim" movement. While fascist is probably the wrong word the describe the terrorists that be, extremist would probably be more appropriate.'Fascist' was actually chosen deliberately
while it doesnt entirely describe the vermin, I dont think extremist really says much of anything, other than maybe they are either crazy psychos or they are into bungee jumping, mt biking and whitewater kyaking.
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replace 'government' with 'religion' and you have a good start on the violent muslim movement.
Quote:At any rate we must capture and kill those in terrorist organizations at every opportunity while simultaneously practicing intelligent foreign policy that will lessen hateful sentiment against us and our goals. We've got to fight a war of ideas to remove popular support for extremism just as much as we need to wage war to eliminate enemy combatants.that sounds a lot too much like apologism to me. They are going to hate us no matter what, there is nothing we can do to appease, and trying to do so just makes us look weaker and makes them hate us more and gives the terrorists more credit.
Im not going to play politically correct with the whole terrorism and muslim connections. Time and time again it has been shown that there simply isnt a black and white line between the two. There have been way too many muslim non-profits mosques that have been fronts for terrorist funding, too many millions of dollars donated by muslims, too many governments supporting terrorism, not to mention the masses of poor muslims in the countries who outright praise the terrorism for me to believe that Muslims who want to kill americans is just a tiny perverted sect of the religion. It may not be a 1:1 ratio, but its a lot higher than anyone is willing to admit.
- Goodspeed - 09-12-2006
Evan Wrote:Im not going to play politically correct with the whole terrorism and muslim connections. Time and time again it has been shown that there simply isnt a black and white line between the two. There have been way too many muslim non-profits mosques that have been fronts for terrorist funding, too many millions of dollars donated by muslims, too many governments supporting terrorism, not to mention the masses of poor muslims in the countries who outright praise the terrorism for me to believe that Muslims who want to kill americans is just a tiny perverted sect of the religion. It may not be a 1:1 ratio, but its a lot higher than anyone is willing to admit.
Wow, I'm sorry but this just isn't the case, atleast not how you present it to be. Yes there are extremist mosques that donate funds to terrorist groups, and there are people who willingly donate to them. But I can honestly tell you from experience that this is a definite minority, not the majority. In reality many of them don't know they are donating to terrorism, they donate to various fronts for terrorist funding that represent themselves as legitimite charitable organizations, it happens all the time and several have been busted.
Governments supporting terrorism? Yes, a few....Iran actually fosters it, Syria and Yemen let it happen, Lebanon is forced to by Hezbollah muscling their way into power. The real leaders are too intimidated to do anything about it, while Hezbollah gives homes and land to peasants to come out as the hero. Pretty much all the other nations in the region do their best to crack down on it. They have very specialized groups of people that deal with the threat, and they are very effective (in Jordan atleast, foiled 3 or 4 terrorist attempts that I know of, one involving chemical weapons). Of course things happen like the Amman hotel bombings but they do fight terrorism in their own way.
Masses of poor muslims who praise terrorism? Why is that? Oh yeah its because their governments don't give a SHIT about them, don't give them any funding or support, let them live off the charity that sometimes comes through from other nations/organizations. When I worked for USAID I saw the figures...millions of dollars going into waste water treatment plants, reservoirs, irrigation etc....had we not of been there, nothing would of happened for them. Its REALLY easy to judge them when you're living in your fully furnished home with all the amenities you want. I'm not trying to make them come off as faultless saints but I have been to their "homes" and villages and they have nothing...no prospects in life, nothing to live for. That is why they are drawn to extremism (whether they know it or not...or care to)...it gives them a purpose. Not to sound cheesy but the Pakistani terrorist from the film "Syriana" is a perfect example of this.
Like I said before religion isn't the cause. Don't tie this to religion. If history was any different they'd be doing this in the name of Christianity or Judaism or what have you. You think we don't have some nutcase Christians here in the states? These are simply people being USED under the guise of religious practice. These are desperate people that have gone through extreme social change in the last generation. They are confused, upset with their governments, but most of all angry. Its our "job" as the modern western superpower that we are to help foster modernization and positive change in the region so that they will have an ALTERNATIVE to extremism. Don't forget that it was US who largely helped foster the creation of the Taliban after our stint in Afghanistan to suppress the expansion of the USSR. We used them, the native people for our gain then left them for dead. Oh gee what happened then? People like Bin Laden arise to power. So don't say "they'll hate us no matter what"...thats BS...they hate us for good reason. Its WAAAY more complicated then "they flew planes into us, so i'm gonna hate all muslims", thats just ignorant and frankly the exact attitude that is driving this country into the ground .Just my 200,000 dollars.
- KPWSerpiente - 09-12-2006
I'm not going to lie...I'm drunk right now as I read the posts above mine but I think I'm coherent enough to drop a few lines.
I was still in highschool when my class (government, social studies? I remember the people and the teacher but not the class' name) heard that a plane had hit the World Trade Center. We flipped on the telivision and watched the second one collide. Reports came in about one hitting the Pentagon as well...many of us are from NoVa and the Pentagon is not some far off building. My dad spent at least a day or two a week there at this time, so did many of my closest friend's fathers. One of my very best friends was out of his mind the entire day worrying about his dad who was in the Air Force at the time.
A few days passed before I learned that a girl in one of my classes' father had actually lost his life in the Pentagon...my father as well as most of my closests friends' fathers were either not there at that time or not close to that side of the building.
Fast forward...today I witnessed a little get together (I can't spell ceramony correctly right now) in which members of the Defense Language Institute were reminded about their key role in the 'war on terror.' Blah Blah.
I'm too drunk to make this post any longer. Read the Qur'ran if you want to know what Muslim's believe...and you'll see that 'Muslims' involved in any terrorist act are pretty much the same as 'Christians' campaigning outside of Soldier's wakes about how God hates faggots; they are out of their fucking mind.
-T
- G.Irish - 09-12-2006
Evan Wrote:How is it apologism to be smart with foreign policy? Should we treat every problem like a nail because we only have a hammer? My point is that if you give terrorists less places to hide and less popular support they will have a harder time operating. The more Muslims feel like we are fighting a war against only terrorists and not Christian nation waging war against Middle Eastern people and Islam the easier it will be for us to win. I'm not saying we shouldn't be kicking down doors and blowing up hideouts. I'm just saying we can't sit back and think that is the only strategy we can use.Quote:At any rate we must capture and kill those in terrorist organizations at every opportunity while simultaneously practicing intelligent foreign policy that will lessen hateful sentiment against us and our goals. We've got to fight a war of ideas to remove popular support for extremism just as much as we need to wage war to eliminate enemy combatants.that sounds a lot too much like apologism to me. They are going to hate us no matter what, there is nothing we can do to appease, and trying to do so just makes us look weaker and makes them hate us more and gives the terrorists more credit.
The extremist groups that be are a threat to muslims who simply want a better life for themselves too and if you can turn the Muslim world at large against those who will murder and kill to meet their political goals you will make it easier to root them out. That's what we did in Afghanistan.
We've got to put pressure on countries where these organizations operate but we need to be smart about how we use our power. I know you don't think we should be dumb and indiscriminate.
Quote:Im not going to play politically correct with the whole terrorism and Muslim connections. Time and time again it has been shown that there simply isnt a black and white line between the two. There have been way too many muslim non-profits mosques that have been fronts for terrorist funding, too many millions of dollars donated by muslims, too many governments supporting terrorism, not to mention the masses of poor muslims in the countries who outright praise the terrorism for me to believe that Muslims who want to kill americans is just a tiny perverted sect of the religion. It may not be a 1:1 ratio, but its a lot higher than anyone is willing to admit.Sure, the terrorist movement we have right now is overwhelmingly Muslim, there's no doubt about that. But there are over 1 billion Muslims in the world. If would terrorists constituted a significant portion of that population we would be seeing a lot more death and destruction world wide.
Bottom line is that this cannot be Christianity vs. Islam. No one wins in that scenario. If that is what the Muslim world perceives we are very unlikely to be able to prevent further terrorist acts against Americans (and our allies) here and abroad.
- G.Irish - 09-12-2006
KPWSerpiente Wrote:I'm too drunk to make this post any longer. Read the Qur'ran if you want to know what Muslim's believe...and you'll see that 'Muslims' involved in any terrorist act are pretty much the same as 'Christians' campaigning outside of Soldier's wakes about how God hates faggots; they are out of their fucking mind.
-T
Well said.
- Maengelito - 09-12-2006
well, i didnt mean for this to be a discussion on how to solve middle eastern tensions. T has brought up a good point about muslims in terrorist acts being at extreme ends of their religion. no matter how you hash it up, religion is based on kindness and faith. how you believe and what you do is based on which religion it is, but it would not have survived thousands and thousands of years if the sole purpose of it was to go out and kill people. its the fanatics that take it a step or five too far. if i had a solution to the problem, i'd be much richer and more popular than all of you ever will be combined, but i dont because its not that easy. mideast tensions are nothing new, terrorist acts are nothing new, unfortunately, we'll still fall victim to terrorist acts and it will get sensationalized because the flow of information is much faster now than it was say in WTC93 or during the american embassy hostage crisis in iran or the bombing of the marine barracks or the uss cole, etc.
- G.Irish - 09-12-2006
Maengelito Wrote:unfortunately, we'll still fall victim to terrorist acts and it will get sensationalized because the flow of information is much faster now than it was say in WTC93 or during the american embassy hostage crisis in iran or the bombing of the marine barracks or the uss cole, etc.'
That's a very good point and I hope in the future we can avoid being paralyzed with fear in the unfortunate event that another attack happens. Part of neutralizing terrorism is refusing to be terrorized.
Of course that's a tall order considering how panicky people got with the whole sniper thing a few years ago.
- Andy - 09-12-2006
Ryan T Wrote:9/11 is like...the milestone of our time. All of our grandparents remember where they were when Pearl Harbor was bombed, our parents remember where they were the day Kennedy was shot...everyone here remembers where they were when 9/11 happened. I wonder how long before this day falls to the wayside. Not necessarilly on a personal basis, but on a national kind of basis. 5 years after we pulled out of Vietnam or after WW2 ended classrooms nation wide were saying "5 years later, where are we now and how are we doing." Much like we are today. But all of those dates have fallen away. I wonder how long this one will stick with us? Regardless, I hope this is the one and only milestone remembrance in our lifetimes.
Interesting article I read a week or so ago about the effects of 9/11. The authors argues that nothing really has changed since 9/11 with regard to the way Americans lead their lives. I'm not too sure that 9/11 has affected my life other than that it keeps a few of my friends employed.
- Goodspeed - 09-12-2006
Maengelito Wrote:well, i didnt mean for this to be a discussion on how to solve middle eastern tensions. T has brought up a good point about muslims in terrorist acts being at extreme ends of their religion. no matter how you hash it up, religion is based on kindness and faith. how you believe and what you do is based on which religion it is, but it would not have survived thousands and thousands of years if the sole purpose of it was to go out and kill people. its the fanatics that take it a step or five too far.
Very true, its as simple as this....read the Quran, it specifically states one should not kill another person...then watch one of Bin Laden's videos and he says its every muslim's duty to kill at least one American in the name of Allah....its so blatantly obvious how these fanatics twist their religions to suit their personal agendas. I'm not trying to defend Islam or any other religion but chalking up terrorism to religion is wrong.
- Sijray21 - 09-12-2006
uneducated people are easily influenced and angry, hostile, intelligent people are blinded by their goal and need recruitments to help - it's a very dangerous combination and a difficult problem to face for those in their path
- Evan - 09-12-2006
Goodspeed Wrote:Wow, I'm sorry but this just isn't the case, atleast not how you present it to be. Yes there are extremist mosques that donate funds to terrorist groups, and there are people who willingly donate to them. But I can honestly tell you from experience that this is a definite minority, not the majority. In reality many of them don't know they are donating to terrorism, they donate to various fronts for terrorist funding that represent themselves as legitimite charitable organizations, it happens all the time and several have been busted.You personally know all the muslims of the world? Dont try to put words in my mouth or jump to the conclusion that I said all muslims are terrorists. I have no doubts in my mind that the majority of the muslims in this country are just as patriotic as I am, and I have never and will never look at an arab and think to myself he is a <edit>terrorist</>.
My point is that the terrorism, jihadists, and radical movement has moved past a miniscule perverted sect of islam and is showing influence in mainstream Islam to the point where there is no solid division.
Quote:Governments supporting terrorism? Yes, a few....Iran actually fosters it, Syria and Yemen let it happen, Lebanon is forced to by Hezbollah muscling their way into power. ...
...If anything you just proved my point. Thats a lot of countries, but you arent finished.
You're leaving out the African Muslim countries which is the largest area of growth of fundamentalist Islam. In Sudan alone over 2 million christians have been killed over the past 10 years. Libya has a long history of sponsoring terrorism.
And lets not forget countries like Saudi Arabia (whose official -and required- religion is Wahhabism) and Pakistan who play friends with us politically but turn their heads and pretend not to notice the massive terrorist movements in their borders.
Then of course there is Palestine where the "tiny minority of radicals" managed to elect a terrorist group into political power.
Quote:Masses of poor muslims who praise terrorism? Why is that? Oh yeah its because their governments don't give a SHIT about them, don't give them any funding or support, let them live off the charity that sometimes comes through from other nations/organizations.So that makes it ok to turn to terrorists, to praise the killings of thousands? Unfortunately there is plenty of poverty in this world (and the US is contributing more than anyone else to fight that) but most of them dont start killing people or supporting killing people just because they are poor.
And guess what, the millions of dollars in terrorist funding isnt coming from the poor folks
Quote:These are simply people being USED under the guise of religious practice. These are desperate people that have gone through extreme social change in the last generation. They are confused, upset with their governments, but most of all angry.I agree to a certain extent, but you are completely ignoring the expansion of radical Islam in developed democratic countries like britain and educated muslims.
After the 7/7 subway bombings in London, a London Times poll stated that 13 per cent of British Muslims believed that the 7/7 attackers were martyrs
The New Yorker had an open discussion with students at an affluent Muslim private school in New York about the events of 9/11. When asked questions about what they thought of the hijackers, they all agreed that the hijackers were martyrs and would go to heaven.
A Washington Post article a couple years ago said about Britain, which has a large Muslim population, "has long served as a base for militant Islamic fundamentalist groups, including the network of Osama bin LadenLondon was the base of operations for Khaled al-Fawwaz, said to be a top bin Laden lieutenant and a recruiter of young men for al Qaeda military units.
"By hosting the dissidents, the theory went, Britain was also buying itself immunity from acts of terrorism on its soil," the paper reported. An Arab journalist was quoted as saying, "It's a political game that can be effective as long as you know how to play it, but it can also come back to haunt you."
Quote:Its WAAAY more complicated then "they flew planes into us, so i'm gonna hate all muslims", thats just ignorant and frankly the exact attitude that is driving this country into the groundIf you think for 1 second thats what I have been saying then you didnt bother to read what I wrote (or lack the comprehension skills to understand it) and just used it to springboard your cookie cutter CAIR propaganda routine
- Evan - 09-12-2006
KPWSerpiente Wrote:I'm too drunk to make this post any longer. Read the Qur'ran if you want to know what Muslim's believe...
Goodspeed Wrote:Very true, its as simple as this....read the Quran, it specifically states one should not kill another person...
From the Quran:
4:47 When you encounter those who deny (the Truth) then strike (their) necks
4:89 They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them
trans: "Have no unbelieving friends.Kill the unbelievers wherever you find them. "
9:123 O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you
21:15 And this their crying ceased not till We made them as reaped corn, extinct
trans: "The people cried out for mercy, but Allah killed them anyway"
28:86 Thou hadst no hope that the Scripture would be inspired in thee; but it is a mercy from thy Lord, so never be a helper to the disbelievers
58:22 Thou wilt not find folk who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving those who oppose Allah and His messenger, even though they be their fathers or their sons or their brethren
trans: "On the Last Day good Muslims will not love their non-Muslim friends and family members, not even their fathers, sons, or brothers"
should I go on?
- Goodspeed - 09-12-2006
Evan Wrote:You personally know all the muslims of the world?
No, but I know a lot more than you
Evan Wrote:Dont try to put words in my mouth or jump to the conclusion that I said all muslims are terrorists. I have no doubts in my mind that the majority of the muslims in this country are just as patriotic as I am, and I have never and will never look at an arab and think to myself he is a muslim.
My point is that the terrorism, jihadists, and radical movement has moved past a miniscule perverted sect of islam and is showing influence in mainstream Islam to the point where there is no solid division.
Your saying "Im not going to play politically correct with the whole terrorism and Muslim connections" did sound like you didn't care to distinguish the two, and instead would prefer to lump the all the followers of the Islamic faith into the terrorist category. If thats not the case, then good. Because there sure are a hell of a lot of people in this country who do just that and prove to others that they are no more educated than those who turn to extremism.
Evan Wrote:...If anything you just proved my point. Thats a lot of countries, but you arent finished.
You're leaving out the African Muslim countries which is the largest area of growth of fundamentalist Islam. In Sudan alone over 2 million christians have been killed over the past 10 years. Libya has a long history of sponsoring terrorism.
And lets not forget countries like Saudi Arabia (whose official -and required- religion is Wahhabism) and Pakistan who play friends with us politically but turn their heads and pretend not to notice the massive terrorist movements in their borders.
Then of course there is Palestine where the "tiny minority of radicals" managed to elect a terrorist group into political power.
I never denied any of this...I was only giving examples that I had good enough knowledge of off the top of my head. Yes, there is a massive spread of fundamentalist Islam in Africa, but you're still not getting it...I'm trying to get you to distinguish between REAL Islam and this fundamentalist BS. I've been to dozens of Mosques, I went to Palestine last Christmas, I've lived in countries where 9/11 hijackers came from, and they were some of the nicest, most peaceful people in the world. You would never be able to find more hospitable and caring people if you tried. The extremists ARE the minority. Look at Sudan, Somalia, etc...they've been having large scale massacres and civil war for decades, it was only recently that fire was added to fire and fundamentalist Islamic teachings moved in, again the FEW are using the MANY to spread their twisted ideals. Again this ties into my belief that we should've left Iraq alone and focused on Afghanistan/Pakistan to erase the root of all this. If anything Africa is an intensified example of the poorest regions of the Middle East, they've been suffering a lot longer so it should be no surprise to any of us that they are turning to extremism. Its as others put it: Lack of Education + desperation = Terrorist.
Evan Wrote:So that makes it ok to turn to terrorists, to praise the killings of thousands? Unfortunately there is plenty of poverty in this world (and the US is contributing more than anyone else to fight that) but most of them dont start killing people or supporting killing people just because they are poor. And guess what, the millions of dollars in terrorist funding isnt coming from the poor folks
Of course it doesn't make it OK, but what other alternative do they have? Are they supposed to sit in their shithole cinder block houses with no job, no money and starving kids and like it? Or they can join a terrorist organization, recieve funding for their families, a new home built (yes they do that for families of those who join), and a status and purpose in life? They don't JUST join because they are poor. They join because they have no education. They join because they have nothing else to live for. And when someone comes to them offering money and a promising new way of life and tell them that America has caused all their problems, they join.
Evan Wrote:I agree to a certain extent, but you are completely ignoring the expansion of radical Islam in developed democratic countries like britain and educated muslims.
Why does that happen? Because Muslims in Europe are marginalized and discriminated against all throughout Europe. In England they're called "Pakis", in France they are forced to live in shitty government housing and take poor paying jobs (hence the massive car burning riots earlier this year), its their own civil rights movement that is happening right now, so obviously some are going to slip through the cracks and resort to extremism. Britain does have a BIG problem on their hands I'm not denying that, they made a big mistake allowing fundamentalist preachers into their country spreading that BS.
Evan Wrote:If you think for 1 second thats what I have been saying then you didnt bother to read what I wrote (or lack the comprehension skills to understand it) and just used it to springboard your cookie cutter CAIR propaganda routine
My cookie cutter propaganda argument? WTF? Go live in the middle east for eight years then come talk that shit to me. Go live in Iran-Iraq War era Baghdad in the 80's like my family has. Go out in the middle of the Jordanian desert and build homes all weekend for poor peasants and talk to them like I did. Two years ago there were three semi-truck sized truck bombs parked in my neighborhood in Jordan waiting to blow up the Embassy where I've worked just down the street, as part of a Zarqawi/Al Qaeda plan. I've come face to face with this shit, so don't think I don't know what I'm talking about, I certianly have more personal experience with this religion and with these people.
- Andy - 09-12-2006
Evan loses *wah wah*
Seriously, lets keep it civil. Frankly, none of us are knowledgable enough with regard to this topic to personalize.
Fouad Ajami, a pretty famous Int' Affairs prof at Johns Hopkins, thinks the Qu'ran doesn't preach mass murder unless things are taken literally and out of context much like if someone were to read Leviticus and use some of those passages to assail Christianity.
Hey Goodspeed,
You seem to have lived a pretty interesting life, you should post some pics of the places you've been. It would be cooler to see pics of Jordan and Palestine.