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Madison Motorsports
Engine Braking (split from the VR-4 brake thread in FS/WTB) - Printable Version

+- Madison Motorsports (https://forum.mmsports.org)
+-- Forum: Technical (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Technical Discussion (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=11)
+--- Thread: Engine Braking (split from the VR-4 brake thread in FS/WTB) (/showthread.php?tid=2603)

Pages: 1 2 3 4

- ScottyB - 08-06-2005

Thanks for that Mike. i will take UnkelF's (and others)
directions as correct since he's been around for a long time and i'm a noob. now i know, and knowing is half the battle.

in conclusion, John good luck with the better brake management :lol:

- .RJ - 08-06-2005

ScottyB Wrote:in conclusion, John good luck with the better brake management :lol:

He wont have any problems when he retires that overweight piece to boulevard pimpin duties Wink

- Maengelito - 08-06-2005

Evan Wrote:This really is a concept that you should get familiar with, because if you loose your brakes, all you have left is the engine.
Every event I mentally rehearse what I will do if my pedal goes to the floor.
right foot: continually pump brake pedal
right hand: pull ebrake up halfway and leave it
left foot: clutch in, put in next lower gear, clutch out quickly but not drop it
immediately do it again to the next gear
turn in very early to maximize pavement you have to work with
crank wheel to scrub off speed

all of this is obviously done extremely quickly one after another.

you should think about what you will do if you have zero brakes if you dont already. i even occassionaly practice it in the car with it off to develop muscle memory

i agree that emergency situation management is important, but i definitely dont recommend doing this until you have quite a bit of experience on track. this is something that is better suited for when your only other option is a tirewall. i think that a driver with less experience will think this is the only thing to do at the first sign of a hairy situation such as total brake failure as opposed to just brake fade.

- white_2kgt - 08-06-2005

Evan Wrote:no, the slowing is not from weight transfer. getting front end "bite" to turn into a corner is, but im not talking about that. there are many corners where you dont really need to brake, but you need to slow down a bit. depending on your car, hp and grip. T4 at summit may be that way for you, or entering the uphill esses.

I don't lift to slow down, that's the difference. The only time I lift is if I f'ed up the turn in/corner entry and I need to rotate the car, the rotation (what I was talking about) comes from weight transfer. If you are lifting you are not going as fast as you could be. If you are not using 100% traction then you are not going as fast as you could be, lifting does not use 100% of traction, only turning, acceleration or braking does.

--chad

- .RJ - 08-06-2005

white_2kgt Wrote:lifting does not use 100% of traction, only turning, acceleration or braking does.

It could... depending on where on the traction circle you are. Its just another tool to use - its not a always yes or no answer.

- BLINGMW - 08-06-2005

I'm gonna need some data. :wink: But thanks for checking w/ him Mike

- G.Irish - 08-06-2005

white_2kgt Wrote:If you are lifting you are not going as fast as you could be. If you are not using 100% traction then you are not going as fast as you could be, lifting does not use 100% of traction, only turning, acceleration or braking does.

--chad

Wrong. You can stay on the limit of adhesion if you lift as you turn in. Typically this is going to be in either high speed kinks or sections of linked turns like turns 1-3 at Beaverun. Brakes of course can slow the car down faster but braking would slow the car down too much and put too much weight on the front in some situations.

It is this situation that is often a good place to try gentle left foot braking.

But then again maybe we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about when you may have to breathe off the throttle to maybe 75% or 50% throttle (give or take) in order to get the car to turn in. If you're talking about people who lift totally off the throttle and coast, then yeah I'd agree that's probably not the fast way to do it.

- .RJ - 08-06-2005

G.Irish Wrote:or sections of linked turns like turns 1-3 at Beaverun.

You lift there? Wink

- G.Irish - 08-06-2005

In the stock GS-R on street tires, yes. With the beater race car, no.

- white_2kgt - 08-07-2005

G.Irish Wrote:But then again maybe we're talking about two different things. I'm talking about when you may have to breathe off the throttle to maybe 75% or 50% throttle (give or take) in order to get the car to turn in. If you're talking about people who lift totally off the throttle and coast, then yeah I'd agree that's probably not the fast way to do it.

That's what I mean when I say 'lifting' no throttle application. In a mustang you are not generally on full throttle all the time Smile

- Mike - 08-07-2005

.RJ Wrote:its not a always yes or no answer.

y'all are just running around in circles when the answer is right in front of you

- white_2kgt - 08-07-2005

Mike Wrote:
.RJ Wrote:its not a always yes or no answer.

y'all are just running around in circles when the answer is right in front of you

what's that? track a civic so we don't have to worry about going fast enough to need to brake?

- Evan - 08-07-2005

white_2kgt Wrote:
Evan Wrote:no, the slowing is not from weight transfer. getting front end "bite" to turn into a corner is, but im not talking about that. there are many corners where you dont really need to brake, but you need to slow down a bit. depending on your car, hp and grip. T4 at summit may be that way for you, or entering the uphill esses.

I don't lift to slow down, that's the difference. The only time I lift is if I f'ed up the turn in/corner entry and I need to rotate the car, the rotation (what I was talking about) comes from weight transfer. If you are lifting you are not going as fast as you could be. If you are not using 100% traction then you are not going as fast as you could be, lifting does not use 100% of traction, only turning, acceleration or braking does.

--chad
thats a nice perfect world idea to think you can maintain 100% of your adhesion limits, but in reality, if you only need to slow a little for a corner, using the brakes will overslow the car.
Read the skip barber book, it devotes a few pages just to the analysis that braking at a lower adhesion level for longer (or in this case, lifting) will result in much faster lap times than braking at adhesion limit for a shorter amount of time but overslowing the car (even by a little)

- white_2kgt - 08-07-2005

Evan Wrote:
white_2kgt Wrote:
Evan Wrote:no, the slowing is not from weight transfer. getting front end "bite" to turn into a corner is, but im not talking about that. there are many corners where you dont really need to brake, but you need to slow down a bit. depending on your car, hp and grip. T4 at summit may be that way for you, or entering the uphill esses.

I don't lift to slow down, that's the difference. The only time I lift is if I f'ed up the turn in/corner entry and I need to rotate the car, the rotation (what I was talking about) comes from weight transfer. If you are lifting you are not going as fast as you could be. If you are not using 100% traction then you are not going as fast as you could be, lifting does not use 100% of traction, only turning, acceleration or braking does.

--chad
thats a nice perfect world idea to think you can maintain 100% of your adhesion limits, but in reality, if you only need to slow a little for a corner, using the brakes will overslow the car.
Read the skip barber book, it devotes a few pages just to the analysis that braking at a lower adhesion level for longer (or in this case, lifting) will result in much faster lap times than braking at adhesion limit for a shorter amount of time but overslowing the car (even by a little)

Sorry, I just don't buy it. Why would I lift off the throttle and enter a turn? If you are doing that and getting around, then you can enter the corner hotter and use your brakes to slow you down later and not just lift like a pansey. Why not just stay on the throttle another second, 1/2 second, whater, and then use brakes that can slow you down MUCH quicker than a lift? It just doesn't make sense. Even if you have to trail brake into the turn if will be faster.

- .RJ - 08-07-2005

white_2kgt Wrote:Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Well, be slow then Wink

- white_2kgt - 08-07-2005

.RJ Wrote:
white_2kgt Wrote:Sorry, I just don't buy it.

Well, be slow then Wink

When you going to come play in Group 3? Wink

- .RJ - 08-07-2005

white_2kgt Wrote:When you going to come play in Group 3? Wink

They havent let us out in group 3 all year Sad

- white_2kgt - 08-07-2005

.RJ Wrote:
white_2kgt Wrote:When you going to come play in Group 3? Wink

They havent let us out in group 3 all year Sad

well resist the urge to be cheap and don't instruct for one weekend Wink

- .RJ - 08-07-2005

white_2kgt Wrote:well resist the urge to be cheap and don't instruct for one weekend Wink

If you want to pay my entry fee, sure Wink

- Mike - 08-07-2005

chad, you're gonna get rolled by something with half the power.