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- Evan - 01-05-2005
Gerald you are smarter than trying to dodge the substance of an argument by playing word games.
Any over the counter or prescription drug is "illegal" if it is used or distributed illegally. But the drug itself is not illegal. Dont confuse "controlled substance" with illegal
Im really tired of the tobacco and alcohol arguments where the logic boils down to "well they suck and kill people, so we should legalize this other stuff that sucks and kills people.!" Thats some of the worst logic I have ever heard.
Our society has enough problems dealing with alcohol and tobacco and its effects, we sure as shit dont want more serious drugs freely distributable.
And dont leave out our wonderful capitalist marketing engines.
If you think alcohol and tobacco marketing machines are huge, just wait until pot companies start.
Do you really want your 16 year old children smoking weed and hitting E because the uber-cool advertising told them to?
seriously people, think of the big picture, not just your desire to get high legally.
one more thing to ponder. Allison works as a mental health counselor. 90% of those with mental illness was triggered and worsened by drugs. Of the drugs, E and LSD are the worst, due to extreme brain chemistry changes.
yeah, thats some great "medicine" people.
ps- the studies i refer to are not exactly google-able or on the internet. this is heavy stuff. Im talking to allison to get me copies of at least the thesis/conclusions since you fuckers just dont seem to get it
- Feersty - 01-05-2005
Ecstasy is some bad shit and can kill someone on their first time trying it.
- G.Irish - 01-05-2005
Evan Wrote:Gerald you are smarter than trying to dodge the substance of an argument by playing word games.
Any over the counter or prescription drug is "illegal" if it is used or distributed illegally. But the drug itself is not illegal. Dont confuse "controlled substance" with illegal
If you're going to make broad statements then I will respond with a similarly broad statement.
Evan Wrote:Im really tired of the tobacco and alcohol arguments where the logic boils down to "well they suck and kill people, so we should legalize this other stuff that sucks and kills people.!" Thats some of the worst logic I have ever heard.
Our society has enough problems dealing with alcohol and tobacco and its effects, we sure as shit dont want more serious drugs freely distributable.
I fail to see how marijuana is more serious than alcohol or tobacco, save for the carcinogens. But the real problem is that is it better for us to be spending/waste millions if not billions putting people in jail for a drug that is not much worse than alcohol? Its hypocritical. If the argument is "It would be too difficult to ban alcohol now" then in effect you're saying we'd be wasting money trying to control it. A lot like marijuana huh? We're just pissing in the wind trying to get people to stop smoking weed by putting them in jail which has only served to fuel an underworld of crime to serve the demand.
I'm not saying everyone should be able to smoke weed so we can have our 'Chronic Hour' at preschool and 'How to Roll a Fat Blunt' at summer camp. It should be regulated the same way as alcohol. Every single one of us drinks and every single one of us drinks responsibly. Should alcohol be banned because there are some people that get violent because of it or go out and drive when they've been drinking? That's absurd. Its similarly absurd to put someone in jail for several years for possession of weed.
Quote:Do you really want your 16 year old children smoking weed and hitting E because the uber-cool advertising told them to?
Number one I can't imagine marijuana or ecstacy being approved for children anyway. Again, it should be treated like tobacco or alcohol.
Evan Wrote:one more thing to ponder. Allison works as a mental health counselor. 90% of those with mental illness was triggered and worsened by drugs. Of the drugs, E and LSD are the worst, due to extreme brain chemistry changes.
yeah, thats some great "medicine" people.
Great, if the research can prove that its not good for people with mental illness, then it shouldn't be used to treat people with mental illness. But to ban its medicinal use without giving it the due research is well, wrong.
Evan Wrote:seriously people, think of the big picture, not just your desire to get high legally.
Its not about getting high legally for me because I wouldn't smoke anyway if I could (the same way I don't smoke cigarrettes). Its about not making unnecessary laws and restricting peoples freedom. For my money people should be able to do whatever they want as long as it does not infringe on the rights of someone else. I may not agree with what they're doing but as long as they're not causing me (or anyone else other than themselves) harm, I have no right to stop them from doing it.
So no, I don't want someone blowing weed smoke in my face at the bar, and no I don't want some idiot tripping on the chronic to run me over with a bulldozer. Its about putting the responsibility in the hands of the citizen. Guns kill about 10,000 people a year in this country. Yet I don't think they should be banned either. As long as you enjoy your right to bear arms responsibly I have no problem. Same with marijuana at least, and probably some other drugs as well.
- Evan - 01-06-2005
G.Irish Wrote:I fail to see how marijuana is more serious than alcohol or tobacco, save for the carcinogens.oh but it is more serious, thats the point.
Marijuana causes significantly more long-term brain damage than alcohol.
A couple (among many) studies that show this
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11711246&dopt=Abstract
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/jun97/nida-26.htm
Of course, you will also find a small handful other studies that show no long term effects which are parrotted by the media and pro-legalization camps. In particular one study done by university of california where the methods are suspect, and physiological effects are not examined.
Quote: But the real problem is that is it better for us to be spending/waste millions if not billions putting people in jail for a drug that is not much worse than alcohol? Its hypocritical.I disagree that we are spending billions on putting regular "users" of marijuana in jail. The majority of money spent is spent on prosecuting the trafficing and dealing of the drugs.
I know a hell of a lot of people who smoke weed, but not a single one who has been arrested for it. Now compared to how many people I know (myself included) who have been arrested for alcohol charges, and your argument fails to hold water.
And dont forget that the only reason that alcohol is in fact legal is because it is ingrained in our society as a social norm. Prohibition didnt work because everyone already drank.
Marijuana was also made illegal in the 30s', I wonder why there were no organized crime rings, secret bars, etc for marijuana? Its because it just wasnt part of society, for good reason.
Quote:Number one I can't imagine marijuana or ecstacy being approved for children anyway. Again, it should be treated like tobacco or alcohol.it doesnt matter if its "approved"
do you know anyone who hasnt drank underage? lots of teens start smoking at 15 or 16, and alcohol and tobacco companies have admitted to targeting underage audiences for marketing.
the exact same would apply to any legalized drugs.
Quote:Great, if the research can prove that its not good for people with mental illness, then it shouldn't be used to treat people with mental illness. But to ban its medicinal use without giving it the due research is well, wrong.you misunderstand. drug use causes mental illness, due to causing brain chemistry changes, especially with people who are already genetically predisposed to mental illness. Now granted, marijuana is a lesser risk of this than say LSD or MDMA (Ecstasy)
Gerald it really sounds like you are more arguing for the decriminalization of pot, not the legalization. I cant say that Im for decriminilization either, but it is rooted in reality much more than the legalization argument.
- G.Irish - 01-06-2005
As far as the long term health effects of marijuana I know for a fact that is has more powerful carcinogens than tobacco products and I'm sure long term there are some health problems the same way there is with tobacco and alcohol. As far as behavior though, I've never seen any one get high and do anything violent. Furthermore, people who are high on marijuana tend to underestimate their driving skills (i.e. drive too slow, be too cautious) where people who are drunk tend to overestimate their skills (which causes crashes).
As far as kids doing drugs, kids are doing that now anyway. I bet everyone in here knew at least one person they could've gotten weed from in HS if they so desired. However, I do think that if it were legal to smoke weed as an adult more kids would smoke it. That much is true.
My thing is that again, if you're not harming someone else with your activities then why should it be illegal to do it? Furthermore I think marijuana is in the wrong category of drugs. The reasoning for the ban in the first place was based on fraud and lies, why don't we be honest about the effects and consequences and adjust the law accordingly.
Maybe the effects would be disastrous but I seriously doubt it. I don't know how legal it should be made, maybe there's an acceptable middle ground somewhere. But I just think this silly web of lies and waste of resources jailing people over weed is a farce. Maybe we don't know people who have gotten busted over weed but that belies the fact that plenty of people are doing it anyway and they're not overdosing, robbing liquor stores, or selling their stereos for $5. If people can do the drug and still function as a normal, upstanding citizen then why should we care?
Just for a pertinent link: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mises.org/freemarket_detail.asp?control=7&sortorder=title">http://www.mises.org/freemarket_detail. ... rder=title</a><!-- m -->
Quote: The FAS report, compiled from newly released FBI and Department of Justice data, determined that 42,500 state and federal inmates are imprisoned on marijuana charges, and another 16,800 remain in local jails. In all, marijuana prisoners now compose approximately 14 percent of all state and federal drug inmates at a $1.2 billion annual cost to taxpayers.
- damnit458 - 01-06-2005
Evan Wrote:you misunderstand. drug use causes mental illness, due to causing brain chemistry changes, especially with people who are already genetically predisposed to mental illness. Now granted, marijuana is a lesser risk of this than say LSD or MDMA (Ecstasy).
I would like to see, if you could get your hands on them from allison, the number of people who have been diagnosed with a mental illness that is directly a result of MDMA, excluding those who are already predisposed to mental illness. If you are going to put anything into your body you have to know the circumstances, for example pregnant women and the consumption of alcohol. Almost all of my friends in the NOVA area have tried or still do take MDMA and all of them are perfectly fine, and to be honest Im more than willing to bet there are a lot more people killed every year by alcohol OR cigs OR guns than people put into mental hospitals by E.
Also, furthering G's point, there IS lot of money spent trying to get kids to stop smoking. Think of all the billboards accross the country, all the commercials that are broadcasted now a days, all the speakers you and I have seen coming up through School. And I would seriously think hard before saying that marijuana is not inbedded in the youth of today.
- JessicaRabbit79 - 01-06-2005
Working around the one legal drug you guys haven't brought up yet is pretty scary sometimes... caffeine. Wow- want to talk about dependency and the effects of a drug on the body. There are some people who absolutely cannot function before their first cup of coffee in the mornings, people who come in shaking because they need caffeine... the list goes on and on.
My point in bringing this up is that I'm not sure that I understand our current drug classification system, either. Who says that caffeine, alcohol and nicotine aren't any worse than marijuana, E, etc?
Makes ya think, don't it?
- .RJ - 01-06-2005
JessicaRabbit79 Wrote:There are some people who absolutely cannot function before their first cup of coffee in the mornings, people who come in shaking because they need caffeine... the list goes on and on.
*whistles*
*looks around*
*chokes coworker*
- damnit458 - 01-06-2005
.RJ Wrote:JessicaRabbit79 Wrote:There are some people who absolutely cannot function before their first cup of coffee in the mornings, people who come in shaking because they need caffeine... the list goes on and on.
*whistles*
*looks around*
*chokes coworker*
lol!! haha. Soda is my god. :x
- Mike - 01-06-2005
red bull and starbucks bottled fraps own me at work.
- CaptainHenreh - 01-06-2005
I used to argue this with people.
What I eventually came to realize is that I have my views and other people have theirs and that's that. Gerald, nothing you say is going to change Evan's mind, and vice versa. To say that Marijuana is just as bad as Crack or Heroin is, well, retarded. To say that Marijuana isn't any worse than caffeine, is also a little retarded. (Though quite less retarded, in my opnion.)
But! Drug users should not be treated like criminals. They aren't. Locking someone in jail for having an eighth and a pipe in their backpack is retarded.
- G.Irish - 01-06-2005
CaptainHenreh Wrote:What I eventually came to realize is that I have my views and other people have theirs and that's that. Gerald, nothing you say is going to change Evan's mind, and vice versa. To say that Marijuana is just as bad as Crack or Heroin is, well, retarded. To say that Marijuana isn't any worse than caffeine, is also a little retarded. (Though quite less retarded, in my opnion.)
Evan and I disagree all the time, like the value of Formula 1 or whether President Shrub tried hard to enough to catch Bin Laden.
But I like hearing both sides of the argument because it makes me think more about my position. On this issue I think everyone can agree that there is problem a middle ground that is significantly better than where we're at today.
- Myuki - 01-06-2005
yea, saw this a bit ago....funny
- BLINGMW - 01-07-2005
Evan Wrote:Im really tired of the tobacco and alcohol arguments where the logic boils down to "well they suck and kill people, so we should legalize this other stuff that sucks and kills people.!" Thats some of the worst logic I have ever heard.
I think I understand where you're coming from, but my argument IS logical. I don't see how you can argue with that. Just because alcohol has become a part of our society doesn't make it any more right than another drug. Now just because it's logical doesn't necesarily make it a good idea of course, and I think that's what you have issue with. That's where our differing opinions come in. But you made me think a bit, and I'm bored:
Mine is that extra drugs don't cause extra drug use, yours is that they would. I think, in this world, there are responsible people, and irresponsible people. The responsible ones will abstain from drug use, use it in moderation, or even use it heavily from time to time, whatever the drug of choice may be, but keep themselves in control. And if they screw it up, and kill someone while on a drug? Or destroy their own mind and body? Don't say we didn't warn you. Irresponsible people don't understand cause and effect. They think it's not their job to look out for themselves. Some of them choose to do drugs, and I don't think they care if it's legal or not. If we made something like pot legal, hell, some of the responsible people might try it! But they'll be fine, we're not worried about them. But the irresponsible? They were already doing it. Now, if anything, we can help them BETTER by controling the quality of the drug and doing a better job treating them.
Mine is that it's not the government's job to regulate how we choose to damage or kill ourselves, yours is that they should. Motorcycle helmet laws, saying that suicide's illegal, ticketing people for not wearing saftey belts, those are some others off the top of my head that I think are silly. How do you feel about such laws? Now helmet and seatbelt laws for minors? Makes sense. Protecting minors in the other ways that we do, great! I would much rather our government stop wasting money chasing druglords around and dump it into education. Have MORE anti smoking, alcohol, E, pot, pro-seatbelt, pro safe driving, whatever adds. Hell, don't gloss over caffiene either. Drugs are bad, mmkay! Help parents help their kids learn to make the right decisions so when they're no longer minors, they will. Teach about it in school. Help kinds understand what their irresponsible decisions can lead to and what exactly these drugs do. While I'm at it? Lower the drinking age to 18. What kind of of confusing message to a young adult is that? "Am I an adult or not?!"
It's our job as a society to look out for eachother. That's part of what our government helps us with. But why spend the time and money on the punishment when you can help prevent it in the first place? Spend money on the driver, not the airbag! Make punishments for hurting someone else harsh, fast, and well defined. Spend the $$ on education.
- DierwulfBL - 01-12-2005
By the way, some people have said that you shouldn't go to jail for posession of marijuana and the truth behind the matter is that you cannot go to jail simply on a possession charge. You can possession and even have it in 14 separate gram bags WITH a digital scale(possession with intent to distribute less than a half ounce, still class 1 misdemeanor) up to a half ounce of marijuana and still only receive a class 1 misdemeanor which if it's your first offense you get a fine/ASAP and after 1 year probation if your piss tests are clean it gets erased from your record completely. That's first offenders status though, if you keep getting caught itll stay on your record and you might face jail time but the only thing you'd be looking at jail-time(mandatory minimum sentence) for would be having more than 100kg (that's a fuckload of pot). For all possession you are facing a sentence but if it's your first then no you're not going to go to jail. That being said i do think that marijuana should be decriminalized because I know just how many people use marijuana and i know all the heirarchy of drug dealing and basically it's rediculously lucrative for the people dealing (i've had dealers tell me they don't wish for legalization cause they're making so much money) if they legalized the gov't could bank off a HUGE tax or even deal with the entire sale of marijuana through them, if they did all the cultivation and kept the prices what the street prices are now they could be making many many many Billions of dollars every year, just as long as they grew dank and didnt try to pass off some schwag for dank prices cause then people would go back underground.
- Ryan T - 01-12-2005
My view on it: Marijuana should be legal. Hate on me if you want, it doesn't really matter, as said above, you have your views and I have mine. If the govt. is spending millions of dollars a year trying to keep weed off the streets, and LOSING, they may as well legalize it and start making some money off of it. People who want to smoke weed are going to smoke whether the govt. says they can or not.
- Ryan T - 01-12-2005
My view on it: Marijuana should be legal. Hate on me if you want, it doesn't really matter, as said above, you have your views and I have mine. If the govt. is spending millions of dollars a year trying to keep weed off the streets, and LOSING, they may as well legalize it and start making some money off of it. People who want to smoke weed are going to smoke whether the govt. says they can or not.
- Myuki - 01-12-2005
drug companies exist and are prominent enough to not be shut down completely...even though they are harmful....if there had been ecstasy and marijuana been sold early days of our country, then it would be sold today...same thing in the places where stuff is grown, it has been grown and profited for so long, it's hard to shut it down, they'll have ways to keep it going.
What I say: let them legalize it....if it's legal, those who go use it and screw themselves over, good riddence, clean up the population....plus those people who aren't fucking themselves over it's okay....
it's an arguable point...this is just my view
- ViPER1313 - 01-12-2005
My view - smoking pot is no worse than drinking combined with cigarettes, both of which are legal. There are much better ways to spend tax dollars than busting potheads. Regulate pot like alcohol, expect the same level of responsibility from users (don't use in public, purchase for minors, drive/work under the influence) and there wouldn't be a large issue (except for an increased demand for Chanellos cheesy bread :lol: ).
- Ryan T - 01-12-2005
ViPER1313 Wrote:drive/work under the influence) and there wouldn't be a large issue (except for an increased demand for Chanellos cheesy bread :lol: ).
They actually had a segment on the speed channel a week or so ago about driving under the influence of marijuana since no real tests have been done. They had a guy stop a car as close to a white line as possible, drive through a slalom that went through a turn and then park in a very tight parking space. He did it while straight and knocked over two cones in the parking segment, averaging a speed of about 25-30mph through the whole course.
He then smoked a joint and did it again and performed the same tests at 25-30mph and didn't knock over any cones. He said the marijuana made him pay more attention to what he was doing. They found no ill effects on a persons driving while under the influence of marijuana.
Am I saying that it doesn't affect your driving? No, I'm merely reporting the results of an experiment I saw.