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+--- Thread: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 (/showthread.php?tid=10604)
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - 95SVTCobra - 04-05-2015
rherold9 Wrote:I'll let Chip explain how the brakes are the first foot to floor stop I saw him almost go into the dash :lol:She stops better. Much better. Always down to help, had a great time! :thumbup:
A big thank you to Kaan, Taylor, and Chip for helping me out!
Senor_Taylor Wrote:Fuck those compression nuts on the hard line.This x10000000. Hope the shop doesn't give you too much trouble.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 04-07-2015
Thought I'd post up the difference in sizes and one guy's stop distances he got: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=373934">http://www.mazda3forums.com/showthread.php?t=373934</a><!-- m -->
![[Image: 097c859e196c2459cc7219a7bf90ee9c.jpg]](http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15/04/07/097c859e196c2459cc7219a7bf90ee9c.jpg)
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - D_Eclipse9916 - 04-07-2015
Read up on brakes based off of Wilwood and StopTech tech manuals, not internet forums. It will help with an understanding of what affects braking distances.
BTW - Glad to the konis/Ground Controls are doing you well! Sounds like you are having some fun and are making some good progress with that car in getting it set up for some track work :o
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 04-07-2015
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:Read up on brakes based off of Wilwood and StopTech tech manuals, not internet forums. It will help with an understanding of what affects braking distances.From some of my understanding and some research it is tires, heat/heat distribution/heat dissaption, weight, piston, and some other things. What have you found on braking?
BTW - Glad to the konis/Ground Controls are doing you well! Sounds like you are having some fun and are making some good progress with that car in getting it set up for some track work :o
Yes it should be better for some track weekends before I get a dedicated car after college (eying S2000s). I don't know if I should go for Summit the 17th or wait until June and July for a full HPDEs.... the struggle. The Ground Controls are definitely firm though... the rear 9.8s I can definitely tell I'll have some good amount oversteer if I'm not careful.
Edit: damn only $355 too. Looks to be full though.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - D_Eclipse9916 - 04-07-2015
Catch me in person when you come to Summit and we can go over much more of it. It would take me hours to put together even a simplistic form.
Tires = available grip. If you are locking up tires at all, no brake upgrade will help braking distance.
Let's say you have put the nicest tires you can find on. Now what? Now that you have enough grip to use brakes, we have to increase their work done. We increase work by increasing leverage (larger rotor), or by increasing the coefficient of friction of pad. Your example? Increasing the leverage does 6-13% more "work" done, but that is still minimized by you now have more weight to slow down with a bigger rotor...
Still, 6-10% seems pretty decent until you realize the coefficient of friction in pads can range from .3 to .7. Meaning increasing brake effectiveness is far easier and cheaper with a simple pad change then larger rotors.
Edit: Great simple whitepaper by Stoptech
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/white-paper---brake-bias-and-performance-why-brake-balance-matters">http://stoptech.com/technical-support/t ... ce-matters</a><!-- m -->
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 04-07-2015
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:Catch me in person when you come to Summit and we can go over much more of it. It would take me hours to put together even a simplistic form.I'll have to give that a read, but I can agree to a point until you get to heat capacity and heat dissipation issue with smaller brakes. I know my set up will be a bit overkill, but better safe than sorry especially with this being my DD right now and not having proper cooling on the brakes as I don't want to do anything crazy to my car right now.
Tires = available grip. If you are locking up tires at all, no brake upgrade will help braking distance.
Let's say you have put the nicest tires you can find on. Now what? Now that you have enough grip to use brakes, we have to increase their work done. We increase work by increasing leverage (larger rotor), or by increasing the coefficient of friction of pad. Your example? Increasing the leverage does 6-13% more "work" done, but that is still minimized by you now have more weight to slow down with a bigger rotor...
Still, 6-10% seems pretty decent until you realize the coefficient of friction in pads can range from .3 to .7. Meaning increasing brake effectiveness is far easier and cheaper with a simple pad change then larger rotors.
Edit: Great simple whitepaper by Stoptech
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/white-paper---brake-bias-and-performance-why-brake-balance-matters">http://stoptech.com/technical-support/t ... ce-matters</a><!-- m -->
Edit: Read it. All about the brake balance based on weight, tire, and braking force. I've read about that stuff before. My new brakes are just as balanced as stock just slightly heavier. My tires will be fine with the pads I have. If I really want to get serious aggressive carbotech in the rear and slightly less aggressive in the front for this car.
My thoughts then go to heat was my main thought on doing this upgrade along with obviously understanding short distances. I've talked to a few people about this. It is interesting stuff.
At first I did not notice heavier steering. I've noticed steering is not too much heavier at all. Like barely noticeable. With that on some turn ins you can feel it is a bit heavier and it doesn't feel slower right away, but feels slow in the fact of changing steering input while already turning feels a lot different.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Senor_Taylor - 04-07-2015
Hey, good job on the braking improvements on your car, Ryan! Fun project and regardless of the technical stuff, your car is better off. I'm sure that's what it's all about.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 04-07-2015
Senor_Taylor Wrote:Hey, good job on the braking improvements on your car, Ryan! Fun project and regardless of the technical stuff, your car is better off. I'm sure that's what it's all about.
Thank you Taylor. I appreciate the help with everything again. 13.1% increase in the front and 12.3% in the rear will for sure stop faster especially once I get the summers on and won't be out of balance or anything, imo for what I want. I shouldn't have any tire slide to deal with unless I get super aggressive pads. That's all I really care for on this car. Safer in everyday driving is nice as well.
I'll never be a racecar driver so the nitty gritty details aren't my specialty and won't need to be, but it is cool learning about them if people want to bring them up.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 04-08-2015
Alignment is done. Pretty good for Firestone. I would go more camber up front(mid to high -3's) but this is a DD.
![[Image: 798878867e3603fcaf1976ce02521b7b.jpg]](http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/08/798878867e3603fcaf1976ce02521b7b.jpg)
Second impression on the Ground Controls:
They be stiff. If I was older I probably wouldn't put up with this. Definitely quality compared to the D2's and no crazy noises. They will definitely do well.
I wish I didn't have to wait until June to HPDE...
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 04-12-2015
![[Image: d0a6b1826b07be7e28747639a289dd08.jpg]](http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/12/d0a6b1826b07be7e28747639a289dd08.jpg)
![[Image: 0fa1a450ebfa886c7d5be6333b68bfa2.jpg]](http://images.tapatalk-cdn.com/15/04/12/0fa1a450ebfa886c7d5be6333b68bfa2.jpg)
Thought I'd post these up if anyone hasn't seen the wheels yet. Pictures don't do it justice. They turned out better than I expected.
Abyss Midnight Flip. The color flip is growing on me.
Thinking about dipping the car possibly this summer. We'll see though
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Jake - 04-13-2015
I dig the color.
Use the "dip the car" money to do more HPDE instead
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Sully - 04-13-2015
I would hope you use the new top coat if you do decide to dip the whole car. Its just looks so good and shiny. And it'll allow the color to flip better because of the clarity. Its also slicker so it'll be easier to clean in theory.
But that's just my opinion
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 04-13-2015
Jake Wrote:I dig the color.
Use the "dip the car" money to do more HPDE instead
But but but... so pretty vs. racecar
Sully Wrote:I would hope you use the new top coat if you do decide to dip the whole car. Its just looks so good and shiny. And it'll allow the color to flip better because of the clarity. Its also slicker so it'll be easier to clean in theory.
But that's just my opinion
I would definitely be doing top coat. Looks like around $100 difference to dip the car with the new top coat
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Sully - 04-13-2015
How gallons of top coat are you budgeting for? An abyss color flip would probably take at least 3 coats. I would budget for no less than 3 gallons of the gloss top coat alone if you're going to use it for your pearl coat and then add two coats of just the gloss top coat on top to give that oem gloss finish. Plus a gallon at least of black for the base coat.
If you're just going for a satin color flip, then ignore what I said but you still might be cutting it close with one gallon especially on a flip like that. Idk that one gallon will give you two full coats let alone 3
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 04-13-2015
Sully Wrote:How gallons of top coat are you budgeting for? An abyss color flip would probably take at least 3 coats. I would budget for no less than 3 gallons of the gloss top coat alone if you're going to use it for your pearl coat and then add two coats of just the gloss top coat on top to give that oem gloss finish. Plus a gallon at least of black for the base coat.Scott Stone has talked to me. 1 gallon black base, 3 top coat gallons will be fine he said. I'm eying the Flash Color Flip
If you're just going for a satin color flip, then ignore what I said but you still might be cutting it close with one gallon especially on a flip like that. Idk that one gallon will give you two full coats let alone 3
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Sully - 04-13-2015
So exactly what I said lol.
I will admit that I didn't fully think about your first post until just now. You were saying that the price difference between the 3 gallons of new top coat and 3 gallons of the old stuff. For some reason I was thinking your difference was coming from tacking on one gallon of new top coat to your order. Which now I see doesn't make any sense.
Carry on.
One note though, I'm not sure if you plan to use the dip sprayer or if Scott already has one and I haven't done any testing, but if you have access to a decent sized compressor, I'm going to test out the $15 harbor freight gun. As far as I can read, it has a 1.5mm tip just like the dip sprayer. I'm not getting my hopes up but I'm going to give it a shot because even with the two cheap air filters I'm going to try, it's way cheaper and will have a much better and more controllable psi.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 04-13-2015
Sully Wrote:One note though, I'm not sure if you plan to use the dip sprayer or if Scott already has one and I haven't done any testing, but if you have access to a decent sized compressor, I'm going to test out the $15 harbor freight gun. As far as I can read, it has a 1.5mm tip just like the dip sprayer. I'm not getting my hopes up but I'm going to give it a shot because even with the two cheap air filters I'm going to try, it's way cheaper and will have a much better and more controllable psi.
He has a gun, but it started having problems. Sam might buy a gun over summer. Does your gun have the flow the plasti-dip guns do? That's what I hear matters
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Sully - 04-13-2015
I havent bought it yet but i believe it has the 1.5mm tip which is what DYC says the dip sprayer system comes with. I cant find product specs but some of the reviews say it comes with a 1.5mm tip and thats pretty standard for a basic gun that is sold to people because it will cover the most products. (Ie: primer, paint, clear)on an entry level anyways.
If thats what you mean by flow, then yes it should have the same flow but better atomization because of the higher psi rating. Apparently dyc is thinking of coming out with a higher end spray system for "home professionals" the current sprayer uses a turbine that puts out like 3 psi or something. The new one will do like 5psi and they have it forsale to their installers already. (Anyone can buy it but its not on the site) and they say there are even better ones that'll do 9 psi that would be even better if you know what youre doing. Well a hvlp gun runs at about 10 psi so i feel it could be the cheaper better solution.
But this is just a theory. I'll be doing testing on the gun and pretty much every blue pearl this summer probably. If the hvlp gun doesnt work, I'll get the dyc sprayer probably.
What did Scott have? Dyc sprayer or a generic sprayer?
Edit: I'm not trying to be condescending but im not sure if its clear cause you used gun interchangeably , but the gun im talking about is an hvlp gun like used for autmotive paint and must hook to an air compressor. When i say dyc sprayer and generic sprayer, im talking about the one on the dyc website obviously and the genric is like a latex house paint sprayer that have the little electric turbine that provide your air. Those have like 2.5mm tips i think. Dyc says a 1.5mm works better which is why their sprayer has one.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 04-13-2015
I'm pretty sure Scott's is the DYC gun. Looked like it when I saw it. Won't too high of PSI be bad for spraying on dip? (too thin or uneven spray). I'm just trying to understand why they use such small guns and pressures compared to paint guns.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Sully - 04-13-2015
1.5mm is a pretty standard size for auto paint. And that's what the dyc sprayer is. 2.5mm (if i remembering the exact number) is the size of house sprayers because they are made for thick latex paints.
I'm not sure, but maybe the new dip formula is thinner or something so they use small tips which will give you less splatter.
The low psi is simply because it works and it's the cheaper option. They know customers won't pay for the high psi turbines when they are probably just doing their own car. Dyc claims higher psi will create more atomization resulting in smaller particle size giving a smoother finish if sprayed properly.
I'm not saying the dyc sprayer isn't perfectly fine for dipping. I just want to try the auto hvlp gun because it'll be cheaper for me if it works. $15-25 opposed to $160. Plus I feel gravity fed could work better than siphon feed. And I could replace the gun every time for $15 if i really wanted to. If it works well, I could even spend a little bit more for a generic like $50 gun from a paint supplier.
I really have no idea how dip will react at the higher pressure. I'm just going by what I've heard the owner of dyc say. And i believe there are dip shops that use hvlp sprayers to do customers cars.
But that's why I'm going to test it.
My original post was simply to offer alternatives if you chose to look into. If not, it's cool. For $15-$25 though, I'm going to at least test it when I do my color testing before I shoot the s2k. I would like to get my hands on a dyc sprayer after and compare though as that would really be the only way to test and see which is easier to spray with and works better. But if the hvlp gives me a really good finish, i probably wouldn't ever spend the money