+- Madison Motorsports (https://forum.mmsports.org)
+-- Forum: Technical (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=4)
+--- Forum: Member's Projects (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=12)
+--- Thread: Really? Another Miata thread.... (/showthread.php?tid=11329)
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 07-31-2018
TL;DR don't know what I'm doing after seeing TT/ST6 rules
Well, I'm at a loss for what I'm going to do with this car after seeing the "provisional" TT/ST6 rules tonight. There was already known bias in TT/ST5 with the A-Arm rule (front or rear) taking a -0.7 modification factor. That will be now increasing to -0.8 so even more of a hurt for tons of cars minus BMWs (aka where the known bias comes in). I was like fine a little bias whatever. Hopefully that'll change. I'll still just run TT/ST6. Welp now my car is prohibited to run in TT/ST6.
The provisional rules state: "ST6 models must have 168 (one-hundred sixty-eight) or less factory rated engine horsepower and an engine displacement less than 2.5L (unless specifically approved by the National ST Director). (Note: BMW 325 E30 models are specifically eligible, and the 2006+ Mazda MX-5 is specifically not eligible). ". My 2012 Miata has 167 bhp from the factory. So, now even in a WEIGHT to POWER class they are prohibiting cars based on fucking power which in my mind is so asinine I don't even know where to begin. The new TT/ST6 rules are 17:1 which is fine whatever you didn't choose 16:1. 16:1 would have made sense because all classes starting from TT/ST1-5 go +2:1 weight to power. TT5 is 14:1, TT4 is 12:1, TT3 is 10:1, etc. The fact that disappoints me the most is banning cars based on factory HP in a weight to power class. This is the only class I see in TT that has this. I don't get the rule or ban here at all since the classes are purely weight to power based. If they want to prevent de-tuning cars or whatever than explicitly say that and tell them ballast or added weight has to be added to compensate.
If someone can logically explain why the TT/ST6 rules are banning cars based on factory hp in a weight to power class I'm gladly all ears.
I'm pretty jaded and very discouraged at the moment. I put so much money in this car thinking I'd be having fun and being competitive in a class that I can't even run now. I was for sure very excited about this car and was enjoying it so much. Makes me want to just get my TT license in August and stop running events for a year+. Find something else to do and purchase a different car again. I accepted the small bias but I believe it's gone too far now that I have even thought of not running NASA events in general because of it.
"Why are you complaining, just go buy a competitive car". You aren't wrong, but not everyone has the luxury of that kind of money and stress of building yet another fucking car along with the time. I could easily just do that but then I'm out at least a year saving up for a car. I'd be dying on the inside to not be able to drive. Or I could just not be competitive in TT/ST5 against RX8s, S2000s, BRZs, etc and deal with losing. No one wants to be that guy out there in the back of the pack not even being able to race side by side with their competition and similar speed cars. I wouldn't mind not podium-ing if I was actually able to stay with my competition.
If I went 2.5 swap in TT/ST5 I'd be still be underpowered by 20+hp but gain 30 torque. That still won't help me in the straight but will help me maybe pull from corners and block in traffic is all I could hope for with this car.
Anyone have thoughts or suggestions on what to do?
As you can tell I wanted to be able to have fun and be side by side my competition if I was going wheel to wheel racing. I wanted to be able to tinker with the car aka not spec class. I also currently don't think I really want to do TT/ST until the National director and board are purged out of their positions.
My initial thoughts are a) keep this and go knee deep into TT5 with either a 2.5 swap or ported head, intake manifold, etc. on the current 2.0 and just get frustrated or b) sell, save, and buy a S2000 or BRZ/FRS/86 or the stupidset idea of them all c) supercharge, full aero, flares, low weight, and 245 hoosiers in TT4. HPDE4 won't satisfy my craving for racing/competition I have in my mind currently
Really? Another Miata thread.... - JPolen01 - 07-31-2018
That's a bummer man. I can't comment on why they wrote the rules the way they did but I don't think anyone is going to fault you for building this car or tell man up and buy something else. Take your time and figure it out.
Really? Another Miata thread.... - Sijray21 - 07-31-2018
How often do the rules change? What if it changes the following year in your favor (or worse, ruins a replacement purchase/mod plan for the NC)?
I'd build it the way you want now and petition, maybe gathering other NC guys in the fight?
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 07-31-2018
(07-31-2018, 10:44 PM)JPolen01 Wrote: That's a bummer man. I can't comment on why they wrote the rules the way they did but I don't think anyone is going to fault you for building this car or tell man up and buy something else. Take your time and figure it out.
Appreciate it!
(07-31-2018, 10:48 PM)Sijray21 Wrote: How often do the rules change? What if it changes the following year in your favor (or worse, ruins a replacement purchase/mod plan for the NC)?
I'd build it the way you want now and petition, maybe gathering other NC guys in the fight?
I normally would agree but when even DJ more or less laughed and said good luck with this national TT director I gave up on that thought haha
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - Evan - 08-01-2018
Sorry to hear about that, that really sucks. I have a bunch of thoughts but no time to write so Ill just say this.
First, Id write the Nasa Director a professional letter. Probably not going anywhere, but you're a paying customer.
Second, dont throw good money after bad trying to get your car up to speed in a faster class it doesnt belong in.
I have mentioned before pick a good stable competitive class and then pick your car, dont build a car then try to find a class. These point system classes are an unstable mess.
Third, I wouldnt take a year off if you would rather be out there driving.
How many cars show up for TT5/ST5? I know on paper your car is outgunned, but if you drove your car as-is would you still be able to compete with the cars that actually show up? If you did that for a year, it would give you time to save up for a more class competitive car.
SM5 and T4 are options, though they arent well subscribed in the area, you probably wont have to buy much to convert the car, and it gives you a great benchmark for comparison. I did that for a year in my miata before I went racing and it was great to be able to compare my times
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 08-01-2018
After some logical and objective thought and a response from Greg I think I have partially made up my mind. Greg is for sure just completely avoiding a response on why the car is specifically banned in 6. Bringing up Spec Miata out of nowhere and saying how well other non NC Miata's are doing. Whatever, screw it. Not everyone comes in with a cup car to race lol. It's a response of if the NB is doing well and the MX-5 cup car is doing well then you should be able too as well. Not a response of well we decided to ban the NC because blah blah blah. It's because there is no real reasoning to ban a car in a weight to power class...
![[Image: 0142a9ee8faa21a58dda9f66453f939d.jpg]](https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180801/0142a9ee8faa21a58dda9f66453f939d.jpg)
Rules will change over time, data needs to be proven, and I'll need to protest to have anything change. The nice thing is it can change with data. TT5/ST5 argument by both Greg and I currently is a he said she said. There hasn't been a Nats comp only regional. It's all bench racing. Logically the car should not do well in ST5. TT5? It's hit or miss since it's time based not who's in front on the last lap like ST racing. Only time and data will change rules. I'm all about making the playing field even so if Greg thinks the car can be competitive let's give it a try and see what happens. Can't doubt what you don't know or haven't experienced since there isn't super hard data currently even if on paper you are outgunned.
Evan/Jason, hit the nail on the head slightly. My thoughts after last night are mostly keep going the direction I was. Don't put much money into it to get the most hp with this car. Regionally my car could possibly compete. Nats? Nah. Seems about how the NC Miata does in auto-x. Regional? Yeah the car does do well but Nats auto-x in a NC = top 5-6 max.
So, on to what I will do. Try TT5/ST5 for a year+ see where the car sits and see how the rules change or progress over time. If things aren't looking bright with how competitive I am I will protest with data. Look for other regions data and also use Nats data. Hopefully their are enough NCs and mix of cars to help with the protest. If nothing changes and I can't be competitive move on to something that will.
More or less ride out the rule set since the rules are so new (not even a year old for st/tt5) and see if anything change over time vs restarting again and having the ruleset possibly change.
My plan is to just run the current engine/exhaust setup and eventually get my car dyno tuned with EcuTek. Other than that I will be stripping weight to race car status, do race car safety stuff, Hoosiers, upgraded to nicer diff eventually, etc. I won't be pouring money into the car to strip the most weight and gain every little hp in the near future.
If my car is close to competitive spend the extra dime and go 2.5 swap for the extra 25 torque and same hp. Help pull out of turns. Make the car shine more where it shines. Engines are widely available due to them being in the Mazda3, Mazda6, and Ford Fusion so they cheap ~$500. Also get the longer European NC Miata final drive ratio as the 2.5 only redlines to 6800 (6500 soft) compared to 7500 (7200 soft).
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - V1GiLaNtE - 08-01-2018
Time to pull that soft top when it comes back from FlimFlam. I think you're being wise with staying the course knowing rules can change. Evan had a great point about TT5/ST5. How many people on average actually show up and compete? By compete, I mean people who are actually serious about it and not just trying to jump out of HPDE "because racekah".
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - Jake - 08-01-2018
I'd build the car for ST5 and see how it goes with local competitors. Nationals is a fun idea, but it's expensive and can be very far away depending on the year. Focus on where you spend most of your time (regional level) and how much fun/competition you can have there. Ideally that would translate to the national level. As you say, you can always protest with data if the first year doesn't go so well. But in the meantime, 5 is really your best option if you want to keep the car.
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - D_Eclipse9916 - 08-01-2018
As I said in the chat, you aren't going to change Greg's mind.
This is probably your first foray into rules changes, guess what it happens. Can make a super competitive car, the worst in just one year. Happens a lot and most orgs try to avoid large changes, but this isn't a change. Your inclination to build for a class that hadn't existed was a poor choice; but you haven't even caged the car yet. Your car is easily reversible to sell as a nice HPDE car. I have told you multiple times, but racing requires a thick skin and not for the faint of heart.
I personally think ST is going to be dominated by HUGE $$$ builds by Emilio Cervantes in miatas (that's probably what is irking Greg since it's local to him) and E36/E46s on a budget level. I also think a 4 door integra might be a good choice as well to get the silly 4-door bonus, plus the big FWD bonus. A budget NC Miata is just going to be an uphill battle, but at the local level, driving makes far more of a difference and you will be fine.
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 08-01-2018
Well, I think I found a more positive outlook. I just talked to the NC guy in ST5 from the Great Lakes region that broke the track record at PittRace for ST5 (1:59) on 22 heat cycled R7s. He has supposedly beat S2K's, RX8s, and BRZ's when he was in TT5. Matthew Huffman ran a 1:59 as well in an RX8 in TT5. This guy says the car is very competitive and I should be fine to roll with it. I got some info from him build wise which I figured needed to be done anyway to make enough power for TT5.
Changing headers yet once again but this time to the 1.8 GWR header vs the 1.6 GWR header I just installed. I've done this twice now so this is a breeze (Won't do this until winter). He is at 169whp average and 2620 pounds. I need to get a EcuTek dyno tune as well. He is on Mazdaspeed Motorsports suspension aka cup car suspension. That means stock sway bars and Eibach damper with 12k/7k springs. I will be keeping my sway bars the way they are but will upgrade from 10k->12k front rates once I get on HooHoo's.
He has some aero going as well. A big ducktail spoiler, cut rear bumper, and a small front splitter along with large hood vents. I have an aero guy that I can ball out on and not create much drag but provide good downforce.
Other than that the car is mostly there suspensions, new alignment wise, etc. minus the safety shit for racing
. Yeh. I'm not too far off the point.I'm still gonna stay jaded about the rules tho
Really? Another Miata thread.... - Sijray21 - 08-01-2018
What if they said you needed a different Radiator. Would you keep the car?
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 08-01-2018
(08-01-2018, 02:58 PM)Sijray21 Wrote: What if they said you needed a different Radiator. Would you keep the car?
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/12msOFU8oL1eww/giphy.gif)
Nope, hose that bitch in gasoline and light it on fire!
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - Scott - 08-03-2018
(07-31-2018, 10:07 PM)rherold9 Wrote: I'm pretty jaded and very discouraged at the moment. I put so much money in this car thinking I'd be having fun and being competitive in a class that I can't even run now. I was for sure very excited about this car and was enjoying it so much. Makes me want to just get my TT license in August and stop running events for a year+. Find something else to do and purchase a different car again. I accepted the small bias but I believe it's gone too far now that I have even thought of not running NASA events in general because of it.I left NASA too because they gave up on my class, or do any compliance checks any time we ran and asked for one (even though GTS always seemed to make it on the dyno every weekend) For some reason having a regular field of 40+ local SSM cars race wasn't appealing to NASA-MA and they didn't want to talk about aligning the rule set with a known working set.
Anyone have thoughts or suggestions on what to do?
SCCA T4 class is the perfect fit for the NC Miata and this year SCCA started a TT program where your car will fit.
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - D_Eclipse9916 - 08-03-2018
(08-03-2018, 10:58 AM)Scott Wrote:(07-31-2018, 10:07 PM)rherold9 Wrote: I'm pretty jaded and very discouraged at the moment. I put so much money in this car thinking I'd be having fun and being competitive in a class that I can't even run now. I was for sure very excited about this car and was enjoying it so much. Makes me want to just get my TT license in August and stop running events for a year+. Find something else to do and purchase a different car again. I accepted the small bias but I believe it's gone too far now that I have even thought of not running NASA events in general because of it.I left NASA too because they gave up on my class, or do any compliance checks any time we ran and asked for one (even though GTS always seemed to make it on the dyno every weekend) For some reason having a regular field of 40+ local SSM cars race wasn't appealing to NASA-MA and they didn't want to talk about aligning the rule set with a known working set.
Anyone have thoughts or suggestions on what to do?
SCCA T4 class is the perfect fit for the NC Miata and this year SCCA started a TT program where your car will fit.
You realize it's completely up to the series director? As a series director, any failure to do compliance checks is the fault of that series director, not NASA. Chris doesn't like doing Dynos because of money which I understand, but a part check that costs time? Go for it!
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - .RJ - 08-03-2018
(08-01-2018, 01:13 PM)D_Eclipse9916 Wrote: As I said in the chat, you aren't going to change Greg's mind.
Was the same story when I was racing with NASA. I found him insufferable, especially on a public forum - he had his bias, and that was it. Sucks that you're on the receiving end of it.
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - Scott - 08-03-2018
(08-03-2018, 11:19 AM)D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:(08-03-2018, 10:58 AM)Scott Wrote:(07-31-2018, 10:07 PM)rherold9 Wrote: I'm pretty jaded and very discouraged at the moment. I put so much money in this car thinking I'd be having fun and being competitive in a class that I can't even run now. I was for sure very excited about this car and was enjoying it so much. Makes me want to just get my TT license in August and stop running events for a year+. Find something else to do and purchase a different car again. I accepted the small bias but I believe it's gone too far now that I have even thought of not running NASA events in general because of it.I left NASA too because they gave up on my class, or do any compliance checks any time we ran and asked for one (even though GTS always seemed to make it on the dyno every weekend) For some reason having a regular field of 40+ local SSM cars race wasn't appealing to NASA-MA and they didn't want to talk about aligning the rule set with a known working set.
Anyone have thoughts or suggestions on what to do?
SCCA T4 class is the perfect fit for the NC Miata and this year SCCA started a TT program where your car will fit.
You realize it's completely up to the series director? As a series director, any failure to do compliance checks is the fault of that series director, not NASA. Chris doesn't like doing Dynos because of money which I understand, but a part check that costs time? Go for it!
I am aware that is up to the series director, which is who denied our request (even though other classes made it over and over again onto the dyno) or at least that was what was communicated to us, and did not want to figure out a rule set. I also understand the cost portion, however if you have weight/hp classing, they both need to be checked, or don't offer that classing structure.
Please don't take this my being upset with NASA, I had a blast at every event I attended from HPDE1 and up. SCCA has it's own issues. It's more a comment of finding an appropriate place for your car to play and a rule set you like if something isn't working for you.
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - Apoc - 08-03-2018
NASA... I could share emails for days.
There were requests for legal rights free of charge, unsanctioned use of the 944 Cup brand, deception, lawyers, and ultimately 944 Spec.
The business side of auto racing is a pretty nasty place.
Those were the days.
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - WRXtranceformed - 08-03-2018
Be your own boss, get into street racing. That's where all the money is at anyway
![[Image: tokyodriftdk.png]](https://knoxvillecarenthusiasts.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/tokyodriftdk.png)
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - Evan - 08-03-2018
(08-03-2018, 11:37 AM).RJ Wrote:(08-01-2018, 01:13 PM)D_Eclipse9916 Wrote: As I said in the chat, you aren't going to change Greg's mind.
Was the same story when I was racing with NASA. I found him insufferable, especially on a public forum - he had his bias, and that was it. Sucks that you're on the receiving end of it.
Wait this is the same Greg after all these years? Wow. Is there a more universally hated individual in all of club racing? That guy is something else.
RE: Really? Another Miata thread.... - rherold9 - 08-03-2018
Everyone I have talked to inside or even outside of MM has not said a single good thing about this guy yet he is still there.... Classic