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+--- Thread: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 (/showthread.php?tid=10604)
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-11-2014
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:More camber in the rear will hurt you, it is going to oversteer more especially under braking. If you want a more stable rear end, add a touch more toe in the rear.
How so? I've always read less rear camber = more oversteer in FWD applications. Where more camber = less oversteer in FWD in the rear.
You may be thinking of RWD?
I'm probably wrong though.
Taking into account my -3 front camber I don't think it will be worse
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - D_Eclipse9916 - 11-11-2014
rherold9 Wrote:D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:More camber in the rear will hurt you, it is going to oversteer more especially under braking. If you want a more stable rear end, add a touch more toe in the rear.
How so? I've always read less rear camber = more oversteer in FWD applications. Where more camber = less oversteer in FWD in the rear.
You may be thinking of RWD?
I'm probably wrong though.
Absolutes are a bad way to look at it.
Look at your balance front and rear of camber and toe. Increasing camber helps to a limit. At 3.2 degrees of rear, I bet you went over the limit by a fair amount.
I bet you are looking at people trying to make a FWD car "oversteer", "loose is fast". They set the cars up with almost no rear camber to get it to oversteer, they also put 1000lb spring rates in the rear and pump up rear tire pressures.
-3 bad...-2 okay..-1.5 probably ideal looking at your alignment, and using generalizations,-.5 or 0 bad again. There is a sweet spot.
Remember to visualize that all "negative camber" is doing is correcting when a suspension deflects and making the tire "flat to the ground" when it is being used for it's purpose. If the car "loses" +1 camber in cornering, -1 would be perfect, and -3 would be overkill, and 0 would be not enough. Both extremes meaning less traction.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-11-2014
Interesting... I'm not a suspension guru guy right now. I'm just starting to understand it.
My spring rates are 10k F and 5k R. which creates and even lighter/moving rear end so wouldn't more camber help me in the rear? I'm also running a 32mm rear sway bar in the rear on the middle setting at 718 lbs/in. The stiffness of the stock Mazda3 RSB is about 230 lbs/in
And I did get lift off oversteer when pushing hard before as well
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - D_Eclipse9916 - 11-11-2014
rherold9 Wrote:Interesting... I'm not a suspension guru guy right now. I'm just starting to understand it.
My spring rates are 10k F and 5k R. which creates and even lighter/moving rear end so wouldn't more camber help me in the rear? I'm also running a 32mm rear sway bar in the rear on the middle setting at 718 lbs/in. The stiffness of the stock Mazda3 RSB is about 230 lbs/in
No problem, we all learn and talking it out helps everyone.
I won't pretend to be a handling expert on a Mazda 3 but there are basic rules of thumb that will give you better handling than 99% of what the ricer forums will try to "inform you".
It sounds like in order to get the car to handle, you threw high spring rates on it for a street tire. Match the suspension to what you are doing. A tire works best when you let it do what it needs to do in an environment for it. Just like a winter tire is good in winter, and a summer tire is in summer. Some tires like more camber, some like less, some like more spring, some like less.
Use photos and any data (such as tire temps) to put the tire in the happiest place you can provided the circumstances.
A suspension controls the tire, but a tire does all the work. So you set up the suspension to put the tire as flat to the ground for when you need the work done. Too much static camber and under roll, the tire is "still" under camber and isnt flat to the ground. Too little camber..same thing, tire rolls and goes positive camber.
I wouldn't pretend to know exact ideal camber for a Mazda 3, but if you are looking for more grip in the rear, tune it so the tire is flat to the ground (under roll). At -3.2 on street tires (not even top tier street tires), it's fairly easy to see you why you might not be using it.
There is also "good handling" and "perceived good handling". A car can feel good, even if it isn't fast. Hence why most people instantly throw on unnecessarily high spring rates, and although it helps, it might be too much. I would say for now, till your driving becomes a bit more consistent, go by what you feel. If you feel it is loose in the rear, soften the rear sway bar (that bar is BIG), and a little less camber and see how it feels. It will understeer more, but only because you have more grip in the rear. THEN work on getting more grip up front :wink:
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-11-2014
Okay. I think I'll step it down in the rear to around -1.5 if I can somehow measure that.... Not about to take it back to Firestone ha. I know the fronts are fine I've talked to a few Mazda3 guys. They say I should step down the rear camber to under -2 problem with that is I'm going to rub like crazy.
I may request some help at Turducken to get them right. I know you can use the string method.
Anyone have any camber or toe gauges?
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-14-2014
Alright so I need lots of opinions on this.
So, I found out why I was struggling so much to raise the rears. I guess with D2s they think you just want an automatic minimum 1.75"-2" inch drop in the rear. I'm trying to achieve between a 1.25"-1.5" drop like I have in the fronts. The spring length is 160MM in the rear. Almost all other coilover designs for my car have 170-180MM length springs. That gives me a 0.4-0.8 differ which would immediately solve my issue. Spring rate is 4.7k they make a 6k rear spring would that raise my car up 1/4" in the rear because slightly stiffer? There isn't a set Spring ID as it an S Spring so it is difference from top to bottom. I was on the phone with D2 technical I sent them pictures and they gave me most of that technical info and say "yeah that's as high as it will go in the rear", "out of all the Mazda3's that have called in 13 years you are the first that wants to raise it". LOL.
Technical said he could email the headquarters wherever they are in Asia and ask them about a longer perch and a stiffer 6k spring. He said that could probably solve the issue but there would be a cost (obviously). So he will email me back Monday or Tuesday with the info.
My question is should I even stick with these coilovers? I know a lot of systems where their rear drop is almost stock height or maybe an inch drop at the most. My fronts are 100% fine and I love it. The coilovers overall don't feel bad. They ride decent and have treated me well. There is the possibility of me spending $200-$400 for new perches and springs and it not fixing my issue. Or I can spend $1k for a new system which would be BC that I know has a good reputation for a cheap coilover in the Mazda3 Community for track/auto-x, have normal ID 2.5" springs, know for a fact it will fix my height issue, cheap to fix supposedly, and have people that know the coilovers better than me? Oh and Black Friday/Cyber Monday coming up so I could possibly buy new ones for even cheaper.
Oh and I want them a certain height for handling characteristics needed for my car on softer springs in the rear. Thoughts?
Pics:
![[Image: 1cgDCwo.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/1cgDCwo.jpg)
![[Image: Db1zzC0.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/Db1zzC0.jpg)
![[Image: sLuEJ5B.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/sLuEJ5B.jpg)
![[Image: lcuya1f.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/lcuya1f.jpg)
![[Image: VpNmSKn.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/VpNmSKn.jpg)
![[Image: YFXULM0.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/YFXULM0.jpg)
![[Image: YmULvb4.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/YmULvb4.jpg)
![[Image: DUCjh5h.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/DUCjh5h.jpg)
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - D_Eclipse9916 - 11-14-2014
BCs are not worth the upgrade. Nor is it worth spending money on the current D2s. Is there not a "coilover conversion" with Konis kit and a set of custom spring rates/length?
How about a Bilstein PSS9/PSS10 setup? Is there a sleeved Koni Setup for it? I have driven a couple D2 and BC cars and not worth the money.
Remember that you could always get the same spring rate and just a longer spring. You can order a spring from Eibach or Swift in any custom length/rate very cheaply.. It does worry me if your current springs are beehive springs or change in upper or lower ID.
Changing spring rate does not noticeably affect ride height (again, dont take this to extreme, this is a general rule). It is simply a matter of spring length.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-14-2014
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:BCs are not worth the upgrade. Nor is it worth spending money on the current D2s. Is there not a "coilover conversion" with Konis kit and a set of custom spring rates/length?
How about a Bilstein PSS9/PSS10 setup? Is there a sleeved Koni Setup for it? I have driven a couple D2 and BC cars and not worth the money.
Remember that you could always get the same spring rate and just a longer spring. You can order a spring from Eibach or Swift in any custom length/rate very cheaply.. It does worry me if your current springs are beehive springs or change in upper or lower ID.
Changing spring rate does not noticeably affect ride height (again, dont take this to extreme, this is a general rule). It is simply a matter of spring length.
There is Ground Controls made for my car. They would be around $1400 including front camber plates that I have to buy separately. They make Bilstein B14 PSS and Bilstein B16 PSS9/PSS10 for my car. $1400 for B14's including front camber plates that I have to buy separately. $2000 for B16 including front camber plates that I have to buy separately.
B14's: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.edgeautosport.com/manufacturers/bilstein/bilstein-b14-pss-coilover-kit-mazdaspeed-3-2007-2013/">http://www.edgeautosport.com/manufactur ... 2007-2013/</a><!-- m -->
B16's: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.edgeautosport.com/manufacturers/bilstein/bilstein-b16-coilover-kit-mazdaspeed-3-2007-2013/">http://www.edgeautosport.com/manufactur ... 2007-2013/</a><!-- m -->
And yes Mazda3/Speed3 suspension parts are interchangeable
And no different ID springs usually won't match up with the perches.
Also, hear Bilsteins are too soft for our cars and GCs if it weren't for the Koni's would be a solid option. I hear Koni's don't last very long and there are several problems with droop and travel on our cars with the GC kit.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - ScottyB - 11-17-2014
some guy in the old club i used to run with is selling a metric shitload of mazda3 stuff from an old continental challenge racecar. brakes, tires, trannys, etc. figured you might be interested...i mean $25 for used slicks, holy balls. let me know if you are and i'll put you in touch with the seller
![[Image: mazda3stuff_zps3be120c5.jpg]](http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f270/scottyb226/mazda3stuff_zps3be120c5.jpg)
here's the car its all coming off of
![[Image: 1662016_673118720866_3956796516097232885...720f9b77cd]](https://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xap1/v/t1.0-9/1662016_673118720866_3956796516097232885_n.jpg?oh=e7e213955d24a82522db5fc158b44f0b&oe=55125EEF&__gda__=1423334839_5019fedfaba1439d861761720f9b77cd)
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - D_Eclipse9916 - 11-17-2014
^^ There you go. Those are actually really good prices, and someone should pick up a bunch of sets. (Pete Denbigh/Jake Thiewes to the courtesy phone?).
Ryan,
Can I ask who you are getting your advice on "too soft" shocks and the such from? Stiff /= fast and most "time attack" guys and "forum coolbros" just want the stiffest thing out there which is why the D2s/BR coilovers really have any followers. If it is a Koni Challenge team or legitimate racers then I would heed their advice a bit more.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-17-2014
Oh snap, one of the iMoto speed3's nice. I've heard about them several times but I don't have wheels for 225 slicks unfortunately. What exactly is for sale? I just picked up OEM BBK (Everything, pads, rotors, brackets, calipers, lines for under $400). Giving 1.6" more front rotor and 1.5" more rear rotor. 12.6" F/11.9" R for rotor size now on a 2800-2900 pound car. Going to be able to stop pretty quick now.
DJ, I didn't buy D2 to just be stiff. I just bought them to get on coilovers. They were used for like $800 and I just bought them a few years back not knowing much. They came 10kF/4.7kR. A lot of guys are running on the track between 10k-7k or 6k. My plan was 8kF/7kR and that's pretty normal to me for a decent set up to DD and track. If I ever make a decision to just do stupid stuff for a track car build I wanted eventually 12kF/10kR but then stiffen up everything else like bushings, etc...
I've found some used GCs for $800 that are 7kF/5kR with non adjustable camber plates for the fronts. Thought about picking them up but I'm worried about having to replace the Yellows soon as this guy Auto-x'ed a shit ton. He just switched over to BCs. You can get BCs custom valved. For example, I can get them valved normally to 3 lbs/in then as greatly digressive as possible after. And have them valved for 7k springs and run 8k as they are over-dampened from the factory.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Kaan - 11-17-2014
You don't replace yellows, you send them in for a rebuild
$75 each
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-17-2014
Kaan Wrote:You don't replace yellows, you send them in for a rebuild
Good to know. Found out the ones he got are brand new only 1k miles on them. Still talking it out with the guy
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - *insertusernamehere* - 11-18-2014
Wow I must not be dedicated enough with my car. Ryan, why don't you just get a speed3?
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-18-2014
*insertusernamehere* Wrote:Wow I must not be dedicated enough with my car. Ryan, why don't you just get a speed3?
Parents. And I hate that mentality. Tired of people asking the same damn thing. The speed community has about 10-30% of very smug and assholish people that think Speed3's are God's gift to Earth. They basically think the car is a Ferrari and if you don't have one you are shunned, flamed, and bashed. I don't want to be a part of that. Some ruin it for all. And I know almost all communities have those people but in the regular Mazda3 community I see no issues like these.
I know most people ask why I even bother modding my car or think I'm stupid for doing so. But, whatever. Why not? There may be better cars out there, it is just something about making a car that shouldn't be fast to making it decent. Also, the fact that I love so many cars that no matter the car I'm in I'll always want another so why should I just keep changing my car and just stay with one....
Just like people mod their BMWs or any other car and make it their car even though it isn't the greatest car, you just love the car.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Jake - 11-19-2014
All the Speed3 does differently from Ryan's car is torque-steer harder into the nearest tree.
I've driven a few (first-gen's) and they're fun but I almost think I'd prefer the N/A version if I had one.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Jake - 11-19-2014
All the Speed3 does differently from Ryan's car is torque-steer harder into the nearest tree.
I've driven a few (first-gen's) and they're fun but I almost think I'd prefer the N/A version if I had one.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-19-2014
The torque steer is easily fixed by a new RMM (Rear Motor Mount). Mazda cheapes out on their motor mounts for some reason. But, yeah Speed3s have more power but they don't handle any different as the suspension is the same and weigh 400-500 lbs more.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - CaptainHenreh - 11-19-2014
Torque steer was worse in your FoST than it was in my Speed3.
God I miss that car.
Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Jake - 11-19-2014
CaptainHenreh Wrote:Torque steer was worse in your FoST than it was in my Speed3.
God I miss that car.
Oh, I don't disagree. People were like "tune it, bro!" and given I have no real death wish... no thanks.
The 1G Speed3's are soooo much better to look at than the FoST, too.