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Madison Motorsports
Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 (/showthread.php?tid=10604)

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Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-10-2014

Good idea I'll have to throw some paint on there before it snows.

Seriously? Just to add camber that is on the camber plates that come with the coilovers? I haven't modded the actual suspension or anything. That would just be ridiculous if that is the case. That's bullshit as I know other cars can easily adjust camber with aftermarket coilovers to where I'm at camber wise without drilling.

Auto-x is stupid if that is the case and I guess I won't be doing much of it. There's a difference between modding something that actually helps you in a major way and modding something so you are even playing field with other cars in your class. I'm sure other cars can easily run -3 in the front so I don't see that as viable rule...

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - D_Eclipse9916 - 11-10-2014

rherold9 Wrote:Good idea I'll have to throw some paint on there before it snows.

Seriously? Just to add camber that is on the camber plates that come with the coilovers? I haven't modded the actual suspension or anything. That would just be ridiculous if that is the case. That's bullshit as I know other cars can easily adjust camber with aftermarket coilovers to where I'm at camber wise without drilling.

Auto-x is stupid if that is the case and I guess I won't be doing much of it. There's a difference between modding something that actually helps you in a major way and modding something so you are even playing field with other cars in your class. I'm sure other cars can easily run -3 in the front so I don't see that as viable rule...

Before freaking out, think of it like this.

Altered strut tower sheet metal. If they allowed this, people could go crazy by altering suspension mounting points, and doing things in unimaginable ways (even if they aren't helpful).

Are you really going, " I did something to make me more competitive but didn't check in the rules so now I call autox stupid".

I am not defending the rule, but cutting up something on your car before even checking if it knocks you into a different class? There is a saying "every car has it's warts". Yours may be its tough to get more camber, while anothers may be "I cant put these headers on to get "equal hp to others in class".

Also " I'm sure other cars can easily run -3 in the front so I don't see that as viable rule"". I doubt you even researched that or know that considering you didn't even check the rules.


Now calm down and breathe, locally I don't think they will care. Just don't go bragging around the paddock how you cut up your shock towers to get more camber. I don't think you ever were looking to go to Nationals with this car so don't just throw a tantrum yet; go have fun locally.

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Beej - 11-10-2014

Chill, Winstone. You'll probably find lots of people who don't like SCCA rules, but there are different classes for differently modified vehicles. Enlarging that hole like that can obviously give a car a huge advantage in the camber department and loosely interpreted (as can and will happen), it opens the door for a LOT more. Sure, maybe it causes certain cars to be better geared towards certain classes, but you're opening up a whole other conversation by going down this road.

Street Touring, Rule 14.8.C
The following allowances apply to strut-type suspensions. Adjustable camber plates may be installed at the top of the strut and the original upper mounting holes may be slotted. The drilling of holes in order to perform the installation is permitted. The center clearance hole may not be modified. Any type of bearing or bushing may be used in the adjustable camber plate attachment to the strut. The installation may incorporate an alternate upper spring perch/seat and/or mounting block (bearing mount). Any ride height change resulting from instal- lation of camber plates is allowed. Caster changes resulting from the use of camber plates are permitted.

Street Prepared, Rule 15.8.F looks the same.

Looks like in ST, you're not allowed to cut your fenders either, which I think you've done. I'm not entirely sure how to interpret the cat removal/replacement rule, but you may be toeing the line there, too.

Unless you're looking to be regionally or nationally competitive, don't worry about it and just have fun - it's certainly not reason enough to quit.

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-10-2014

Indeed, exactly I understand that. But, this allows so much differentiation it just doesn't make sense to me. Auto-x rules in general just don't make sense sometimes they leave things up for interpretation and they don't think about some circumstances as in my car's concern. I know Sam's car for example doesn't need to cut anything to be able to fit extra camber like mine.

About the cat thing I've been cleared multiple times to be okay in STF.

What do you interpret as cutting? I see cutting as in modifying to cut the fenders short or higher. I see what I did as shaving and will give the same clearance as rolling probably actually less.... Just being cheaper.

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Beej - 11-10-2014

rherold9 Wrote:they don't think about some circumstances as in my car's concern. I know Sam's car for example doesn't need to cut anything to be able to fit extra camber like mine.
I'm sure they thought exactly about circumstances like yours. If it's any consolation, have a look at the 2014 National STF results: a Mazda 3 is sitting in 3rd place and there are a total of 7 in the top 24.

rherold9 Wrote:What do you interpret as cutting? I see cutting as in modifying to cut the fenders short or higher. I see what I did as shaving and will give the same clearance as rolling probably actually less.... Just being cheaper.
As for the rule:

Street Touring, Rule 14.2.E
Fenders may not be cut or flared but the inside lip may be rolled to gain additional tire clearance. (The outer fender contour may not be changed.) Plastic and rubber wheel well splash shields may be mod- ified for tire clearance and to accommodate a rolled inside fender lip. The modifications may serve no other purpose (e.g., air intake, brake ducts, etc). No other changes to the standard fenders or wheel wells are permitted.

I'd probably say that removing any metal would be called cutting, but I ain't the guy to ask.

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - D_Eclipse9916 - 11-10-2014

Beej Wrote:
rherold9 Wrote:they don't think about some circumstances as in my car's concern. I know Sam's car for example doesn't need to cut anything to be able to fit extra camber like mine.
I'm sure they thought exactly about circumstances like yours. If it's any consolation, have a look at the 2014 National STF results: a Mazda 3 is sitting in 3rd place and there are a total of 7 in the top 24.

rherold9 Wrote:What do you interpret as cutting? I see cutting as in modifying to cut the fenders short or higher. I see what I did as shaving and will give the same clearance as rolling probably actually less.... Just being cheaper.
As for the rule:

Street Touring, Rule 14.2.E
Fenders may not be cut or flared but the inside lip may be rolled to gain additional tire clearance. (The outer fender contour may not be changed.) Plastic and rubber wheel well splash shields may be mod- ified for tire clearance and to accommodate a rolled inside fender lip. The modifications may serve no other purpose (e.g., air intake, brake ducts, etc). No other changes to the standard fenders or wheel wells are permitted.

I'd probably say that removing any metal would be called cutting, but I ain't the guy to ask.

The "no other changes to the standard fenders or wheel wells are permitted", clears up any "rules interpretation" between cut/flared/shaving etc.

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-10-2014

Beej Wrote:I'm sure they thought exactly about circumstances like yours. If it's any consolation, have a look at the 2014 National STF results: a Mazda 3 is sitting in 3rd place and there are a total of 7 in the top 24.

As for the rule:

Street Touring, Rule 14.2.E
Fenders may not be cut or flared but the inside lip may be rolled to gain additional tire clearance. (The outer fender contour may not be changed.) Plastic and rubber wheel well splash shields may be mod- ified for tire clearance and to accommodate a rolled inside fender lip. The modifications may serve no other purpose (e.g., air intake, brake ducts, etc). No other changes to the standard fenders or wheel wells are permitted.

I'd probably say that removing any metal would be called cutting, but I ain't the guy to ask.

Yeah but generally more camber = more grip to a point. And every thousandth of a second that little bit of extra grip counts.

Anyways this doesn't really matter I doubt I will be competing since obviously my car isn't within the "rules" now but I'm not going to be in STF now if I do actually auto-x I guess I'll be in FSP? if it is even allowed there

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - ScottyB - 11-10-2014

the entire point of most of the autocross classing and rulesets is to either allow or disallow certain strengths in a huge variety of eligible cars in order to balance the competition so that the "one care to have" for each class is negated as much as possible (although it inevitably happens that one car tends to dominate...but rules eventually change to combat this over time). the rule makers study the race results and perceived characteristics of the kind of cars that are eligible for each class and craft the rules so that some cars and held back but some cars are allowed advantages so that the racing is tighter.

this is a hypothetical example -- your car may have camber problems but has a power to weight advantage over most cars in your field. another car may weigh more but can take advantage or more suspension adjustment. another may have poor weight and suspension adjustment but a strong engine. etc etc. the challenge is to try to find the best way to be fast within your class with a car that may not be able to take advantage of every modification allowance.

autocross-maximized cars typically have to run less-than-optimized setups for this exact reason - some parts are allowed but others are not, and don't necessarily let the car reach full potential.

locally you will probably be fine, and if you keep it to yourself nobody will probably ever notice. past that (divisional, national) you're taking a chance at being called out for good reason.

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Beej - 11-10-2014

rherold9 Wrote:Anyways this doesn't really matter I doubt I will be competing since obviously my car isn't within the "rules" now but I'm not going to be in STF now if I do actually auto-x I guess I'll be in FSP? if it is even allowed there
I stated above that SP appears to have the same rules as far as the center strut hole. However, it does allow fender flares and such.

You're gonna love me after this one, but your spoilers may not be allowed in ST either :-P
Street Touring, Rule 14.2.F
Addition of spoilers, splitters, rear wings, bumper covers, valances, side skirts, and non-functional sccops/vents is allowed provided that either:
1. It is a production part which is standard or optional equipment of a US model of the vehicle. (“Model” is defined in Section 12.3.)
2. It is listed in the vehicle manufacturer’s US accessory catalog for that vehicle for normal highway use. This does not allow for parts sold through a manufacturer’s performance catalog (e.g., Ford Racing, HPD, Mazdaspeed, Mopar Performance, Mugen, NISMO, SPT, TRD, etc).
Parts must be installed as directed by the manufacturer. Exact replicas,including weight, from alternate sources are also permitted.

I'm done reading the rules out in this thread - check them out yourself: <!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.scca.com/solo/content.cfm?cid=44517">http://www.scca.com/solo/content.cfm?cid=44517</a><!-- m -->

I personally have only seen outrageous violations (like undeclared motor swaps) protested in person locally unless it's a super competitive class/group. Just have fun.

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-10-2014

I don't think I have a great power to weight of .052 is out performing many cars. Let's take an RSX for example it would kills my car in power to weight and can get more front camber than me.

So. Looks like I really won't be doing auto-x in this thing much.

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - ScottyB - 11-10-2014

you forgot the biggest factor in any car....the driver. go do autocrosses locally and have fun regardless of who has a perceived advantage in whatever. you'll beat plenty of people I'm sure.

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Beej - 11-10-2014

rherold9 Wrote:So. Looks like I really won't be doing auto-x in this thing much.
Why? You've autocrossed what, 3 times? It's about learning how to drive, not winning. Hell, the only other car in your "tougher" FSP class last time was a Chevy S-10.

You want to be competitive, which is great. Go often enough and you'll find regulars close to your times, regardless of car/class. Aim for them.

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-10-2014

Alright let me be clear since I say things and they don't mean what they read/I want them to mean.

I won't be competing. I'll auto-x but not much as said before mostly want to be on the track for the first reason, secondly I want to be in the right class but obviously that won't happen.

I do it to have fun. I just thought I'd be able to get a but competitive in the area but now I can't.

So, got my final alignment specs. I'm going to say that I wish rear camber was a bit closer together I guess toe affects camber that much to move each side .2 degrees?:

[Image: o6Gxvgc.jpg]

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - ScottyB - 11-10-2014

i get crazy about symmetry. i ususally tell the alignment guys to get camber as negative as possible but both sides have to be the same. just bugs me. you probably won't notice too much handling difference with that being uneven in the back, but that's still like half a degree difference...not insignificant.

one thing with running this much negative camber on the street....i'd put at least your front toe-in to zero. any toe with that much camber is going to chew up tires pretty good. plus zero toe feel great for turn-in. you may want to keep it in the back though for extra stability with such a light rear end.

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-10-2014

Well what is funny on Friday in the rear when I got it aligned I had -3.2 and -3.0 and now it is that. Makes no sense how it changed that much. I just don't think the alignment rack is really accurate at Firestone to be honest or the guy is retarded. He first didn't even adjust my rear toe and then my camber changed by .2 degrees from when he literally just took it off the alignment rack and had to put it back on because I complained. The right rear does not looks anywhere near basically a half a degree difference from the front when eying it...

Notice this one is done at 5:37pm... I just can't imagine how that much change takes place... Check out that front camber change

[Image: XfOxjtn.jpg]

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-10-2014

I don't get it.

Just for ease to browse this is Friday's alignment sheet:

[Image: wHHwpD6.jpg]

This is today at 5:37pm:

[Image: MzTEbaL.jpg]

This is today at 6:10pm:

[Image: cgre9lj.jpg]

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - Kaan - 11-11-2014

are you sure you aren't having bushings go out? maybe the camber plates are tightened down correctly?

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - D_Eclipse9916 - 11-11-2014

Any way to get more caster?

Btw why so much rear camber?

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - rherold9 - 11-11-2014

There is no way bushings are going out at 29k and 5 years old. Yes the last time I worked on the rear camber and eyed it to the original I tightened the nut down with an allen key and wrench (which they didn't touch) so it shouldn't be loose.

DJ, I have no idea about caster. I've never seen adjustable caster stock on these cars. They have a lighter steering feel but I've gotten used to it. I could if I went aftermarket but have never checked. So much rear camber because I'm slightly rubbing and last time I was on track I was getting too much oversteer when I tried light trailbraking coming off the back straight and off the top of the esses. So, I'm going to give this a try in the spring and see how it feels

Re: Project 2.Slow Mazda3 - D_Eclipse9916 - 11-11-2014

rherold9 Wrote:There is no way bushings are going out at 29k and 5 years old. Yes the last time I worked on the rear camber and eyed it to the original I tightened the nut down with an allen key and wrench (which they didn't touch) so it shouldn't be loose.

DJ, I have no idea about caster. I've never seen adjustable caster stock on these cars. They have a lighter steering feel but I've gotten used to it. I could if I went aftermarket but have never checked. So much rear camber because I'm slightly rubbing and last time I was on track I was getting too much oversteer when I tried light trailbraking coming off the back straight and off the top of the esses. So, I'm going to give this a try in the spring and see how it feels

More camber in the rear will hurt you, it is going to oversteer more especially under braking. If you want a more stable rear end, add a touch more toe in the rear.