+- Madison Motorsports (https://forum.mmsports.org)
+-- Forum: Madison Motorsports (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=3)
+--- Forum: Lounge (https://forum.mmsports.org/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Thread: The market is BEGGING.... (/showthread.php?tid=6247)
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Kaan - 10-31-2011
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:And its still a FWD honda. They got rid of their only two good cars, the s2000 and the nsx. ............(waits for the hate)
the S2k should have come with the legit K24. The F series motor couldnt produce any TQ
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - JPolen01 - 10-31-2011
Kaan Wrote:nope... not any more. the mini odessy Si had intake side only like the base RSX, the RSX-S had the intake and exhaust vtec... i think the Z1 Si's got the double vtec for a couple of years before they got handcuffed again.
that being said... you can always get more power with a came profile. thats why they varry the timing and profile right? to say it cant be done is a little extreme
Thanks for that explanation. There are so many versions of the K. It's hard to remember all of them. An s2k with a k24 would have been teh tits.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - G.Irish - 10-31-2011
Kaan Wrote:K24 would have been a terrible engine for the S2000. Too undersquare to get revs out of it in a factory application. You might've gotten a bit more torque but not much more power. Had they made a more square K24 or even a K22 that would've worked well.D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:And its still a FWD honda. They got rid of their only two good cars, the s2000 and the nsx. ............(waits for the hate)
the S2k should have come with the legit K24. The F series motor couldnt produce any TQ
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Kaan - 10-31-2011
The F22 got special treatment to rev, the K24 could have too.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - .RJ - 10-31-2011
The K24 wasnt built to handle that kind of RPM, diff'rent strokes (literally).
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - G.Irish - 10-31-2011
F22 is only a little bit undersquare, and even then it loses 1000 revs compared to the F20. K24 is a lot more undersquare. That's why the Civic Si only revs to 7200. If you want revs, you gotta be square.
F20: 87 mm x 84.4 mm
F22: 87mm x 90.7 mm
K20: 86 mm x 86 mm
K24: 87 mm x 99 mm
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Evan - 10-31-2011
kaan stop shitting up my rwd thread with honda fwd econoshitbox fanboi garbage !
specs look good, about what was expected, and it will be a blast to drive no doubt. car looks good, but a bit bland, which is tragic given how sexy the concept was
unfortunately unlikely ill get one at this point so many years after it was my perfect dd
![[Image: khaaaaan.jpeg]](http://nashvillejefferson.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/khaaaaan.jpeg)
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - ScottyB - 10-31-2011
and colors now:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2105">http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2105</a><!-- m -->
an interesting thing i recall reading which appears to be true is that all engine mounting points will match up with subaru's EJ25 engines. IE, drop a STi powerplant in...bolts right up.
even the "low end" 200hp engine should give it a power/weight ratio roughly similar to an E36M3.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - .RJ - 10-31-2011
I'll take mine in red, please.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Kaan - 11-01-2011
G.Irish Wrote:Kaan Wrote:K24 would have been a terrible engine for the S2000. Too undersquare to get revs out of it in a factory application. You might've gotten a bit more torque but not much more power. Had they made a more square K24 or even a K22 that would've worked well.D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:And its still a FWD honda. They got rid of their only two good cars, the s2000 and the nsx. ............(waits for the hate)
the S2k should have come with the legit K24. The F series motor couldnt produce any TQ
I would beg to differ on the topic in bold. The K24 is still in acceptable R:S overall. The F motors got special attention. If you compare crank machining "finish", rod design, and the fact F series valvetrain just drops right in... If they applied the technology of the F series to the K24 (or various hybrid that have been created... the K20 with a F22 crank!) the S2k would have taken a step forward. As is, you average joes bolting all honda stock parts together to get 250whp and 220ftlbs... reving to 8.5-9k... add some legit egineers to that and it might last as long as honda expects
Rex told me yesterday... companies arent trickling down enough technology... after thinking about it, he's right. In one way or another all the companies are pulling punches and making major compromises... or just not seeking to push the market.
I blame the "global economy." Look at the bike industry... they are pushing technology to the bikes, but the gap between the street bike and the race bike is growing. I think its the same way with cars... but in a more compounded level. at least bike companies know why people are buying the bikes. car companies assume we just drive them to work and to pick up tommy and suzie from soccer practice.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - D_Eclipse9916 - 11-01-2011
Kaan Wrote:car companies assume we just drive them to work and to pick up tommy and suzie from soccer practice.
Cause thats all pretty much anyone does these days. Seriously, why did SUVs/crossovers become so popular? Why would honda waste money for the .005% market share of you honda boy that would probably not buy a new vehicle anyway.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - .RJ - 11-01-2011
Kaan Wrote:Look at the bike industry... they are pushing technology to the bikes, but the gap between the street bike and the race bike is growing
Because street bikes are getting more advanced electronics, traction control, better breathing/higher revving engines, lighter bits and better suspension... ? Oh wait...
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Kaan - 11-01-2011
.RJ Wrote:Kaan Wrote:Look at the bike industry... they are pushing technology to the bikes, but the gap between the street bike and the race bike is growing
Because street bikes are getting more advanced electronics, traction control, better breathing/higher revving engines, lighter bits and better suspension... ? Oh wait...
there was at least a 3 year production stop (or longer for suzuki). and yes they are putting stuff into the bikes (now), but the gap between the street bike and the track bike technology grew. how many years did we go with a "face lift?"
where there was a 3 year track to street window... i would guess we are over a 5 year track to street window now.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - .RJ - 11-01-2011
And suzuki has pulled support of production based racing series (WSBK, etc) and pared their motoGP team down to 1 rider with minimal updates and new parts - they're also the smallest Japanese moto manufacturer. Really poor example when Kawasaki, BMW, Aprilia and Yamaha (hello? odd firing engine on the STREET?) have done the exact opposite.
So... you're just making noise.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - G.Irish - 11-01-2011
Kaan Wrote:You're talking about 1 or 2 companies that decided to be conservative. Suzuki is hurting financially and has cut their involvement in motorsports as well as lengthened their product cycle. The other companies in that time have been adding advanced traction control and engine management software, different firing orders, advanced abs, and much higher power engines. Look at the gap in horsepower between street bikes and Moto GP bikes. The S1000RR and ZX-10R make about 200 hp. A Moto GP bike is making around 240 hp. That's only a 20% difference. Back in 2002 the most powerful 1000 cc street bikes only made about 150 hp and the GP bikes were making 250 hp. Granted GP bikes are 800's now, but street bikes are devastatingly fast now. Just because Suzuki dropped the ball doesn't mean everyone else is..RJ Wrote:Kaan Wrote:Look at the bike industry... they are pushing technology to the bikes, but the gap between the street bike and the race bike is growing
Because street bikes are getting more advanced electronics, traction control, better breathing/higher revving engines, lighter bits and better suspension... ? Oh wait...
there was at least a 3 year production stop (or longer for suzuki). and yes they are putting stuff into the bikes (now), but the gap between the street bike and the track bike technology grew. how many years did we go with a "face lift?"
where there was a 3 year track to street window... i would guess we are over a 5 year track to street window now.
Anyway, back on topic. I'm glad Toyota and Subaru are making the FT86/FRS/BRZ. If it does well, I hope it inspires other manufacturers to get off their ass and make some inexpensive RWD cars. Ideally I'd like to see Nissan bring back the Silvia and maybe BMW offer a nice 4-cylinder 1 series that doesn't weigh 3400 lbs.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Kaan - 11-01-2011
lol Kawi is always the HP king... they must win all dyno battles. Its been that way since tom cruise rode down the runway in top gun. the BMW/Aprillia/KTM rare birds can fall in the suzuki area if you want. too small to worry about.
why is the cross plane stuck in the R1 and didnt make it to the other motors? the arent racing with 1k ccs anymore. at least not in the levels that the crank was developed. so the underpowered cross plane and the oil sipping RR are the remaining examples of racing technology.
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - .RJ - 11-01-2011
Kaan Wrote:why is the cross plane stuck in the R1 and didnt make it to the other motors? the arent racing with 1k ccs anymore. at least not in the levels that the crank was developed. so the underpowered cross plane and the oil sipping RR are the remaining examples of racing technology.
Yeah, they dont race that motor at all...
![[Image: PLN.SpiesWorldChampion530.jpg]](http://www.fastdates.com/PLN.Images2009/PLN.SpiesWorldChampion530.jpg)
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - G.Irish - 11-01-2011
Kaan Wrote:lol Kawi is always the HP king... they must win all dyno battles. Its been that way since tom cruise rode down the runway in top gun. the BMW/Aprillia/KTM rare birds can fall in the suzuki area if you want. too small to worry about.Uh, the BMW was the best selling 1000 last year.
Quote:why is the cross plane stuck in the R1 and didnt make it to the other motors? the arent racing with 1k ccs anymore. at least not in the levels that the crank was developed. so the underpowered cross plane and the oil sipping RR are the remaining examples of racing technology.That's because none of the other manufacturers are racing with that design. All of the other GP bikes are V4's, and for now everyone but Aprilia has decided a V4 would make their 1000 cc supersport too expensive.
As for racing tech, 5 out of the 7 supersport 1000's have traction control, what more do you want?
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - ScottyB - 11-01-2011
dammit guys....take your bikes and leather jumper suits to the motorcycle forum.
just released: (still a concept though)
![[Image: subaru-brz-sti-concept_100368712_l.jpg]](http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/subaru-brz-sti-concept_100368712_l.jpg)
![[Image: 2013-Subaru-BRZ-Prototype-front-three-quarter.jpg]](http://image.motortrend.com/f/35591548+w1500+ar1+st0/2013-Subaru-BRZ-Prototype-front-three-quarter.jpg)
"Subaru is saving the world reveal of its new BRZ sports car for the 2011 Tokyo Motor Show, but it wonÔÇÖt be neglecting the Los Angeles Auto Show taking place in just two weeksÔÇÖ time, announcing today plans to unveil the new "BRZ Concept - STI" at the American show.
The striking concept car not only reveals the new look of SubaruÔÇÖs upcoming rear-wheel drive sports car, but also the direction engineers from the brandÔÇÖs STI performance division could take it.
No other info about the concept has been revealed, although we can gather many of the details just by looking at this preview image.
As we know, the Subaru BRZ will essentially be a twin of the upcoming Toyota FT-86/Scion FR-S. However, the latest image reveals that SubaruÔÇÖs version of the car will have a unique tail-lamp design and revised diffuser, although this latter element may just be a STI unit.
Comparing it with recently leaked images of the Toyota FT-86, as well as previous spy shots, we can also see that the BRZ will feature a set of fender vents, as well as what appears to be more deeply sculpted doors.
Stay tuned for more information in the lead up to the Subaru BRZ Concept - STI's reveal at the 2011 Los Angeles Auto Show."
Re: The market is BEGGING.... - Apoc - 11-01-2011
You guys realize you're just making it worse, right?
That BRZ looks too much like an RX-8 to be taken seriously.