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Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - CaptainHenreh - 07-21-2016
WRXtranceformed Wrote:Yes on the shotgun, no freaking way with the AR. You do not want to use a high powered rifle for home defense if you are living in a townhome (which it sounds like you are). Frankly I would only use a rifle for home defense if I lived out in the boonies or on a farm.
NO.
JustinG Wrote:556/223 tumble and lose velocity drastically when it impacts a wall. The ballistic tests I have seen show they all (9mm, 12ga 00 and .223) penetrate way more than you think, and surprisingly less so with an AR.
This. Read it for yourself:
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/">http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-t ... and-walls/</a><!-- m -->
Here's something you need to comprehend:
Anything that will sufficiently penetrate a human being to stop them from doing an activity will have no problem penetrating drywall. 12 gauge, 5.56, 9mm, .44mag, hell a goddam ink pen has no problem with drywall. A round that will penetrate a bad guy absolutely will have no problem with 2-3 interior walls. This is why we train.
That said, some are more penetrate-y than others. As justin mentioned, the 5.56 (being such a low-mass, high-velocity round) deflects, fragments, and bleeds it's energy much more rapidly than a slow-moving, high mass projectile like buckshot or a 220gr .45ACP slug. Read the link above for more info...absolutely do NOT take my word for it.
A shotgun, in my opinion is a poor choice. It's cheap, and that's about all it's got going for it. Long length, High recoil, high weight, low degree of adjustability for shooter, and a pretty steep learning curve to shoot. Anyone who thinks a shotgun, just because the shot "spreads" is some kind of wall of lead death you just need to sort of vaguely point in a threat's direction has never actually tried to hit anything with it before. If you think about it for a little while from a tactical standpoint, you'll see why it's a poor choice. It's a good choice for people with no other choice (because they live in non-free states or they do not have the funds for a more suitable tool) but if you have the means, there are better choices.
A pistol is a good compromise, it's small and lethal, but difficult to be 'good' with, and also more difficult to retain than a long gun.
A patrol carbine/PDW/"assault weapon" is good for home defense for the same reasons it's good for war. Light weight, low recoil, accurate, easy to control, easy to sling and easy to mount a light to. Don't discount accuracy and follow up shots, if you're concerned about damaging your neighbors, train so you won't miss. Here's an example. Now I'm nothing particularly special, just a computer nerd who likes guns, but all those rounds went into a USPSA "silhouette" target at 25 meters. I absolutely cold NOT repeat that same performance with a pistol for accuracy, nor with a shotgun with speed. A carbine makes a very nice case for itself to be operated by anyone with a relatively small learning curve. AK's are operated by illiterate child soldiers in africa ffs.
As far as your legal liability goes...honestly? Don't worry about it. yes, the dumb public may think scary black rifles are icky, but then you've already shot a guy...it's (generally speaking) an uphill battle if you've reached the place where you're defending yourself in court. Further, show me a single court case where the tools someone chose to justly defend themselves was even mentioned and I'll allow it, but you won't find one. Don't cripple your toolbox just because of what some juror might think about it.
Because here's the reality: You'll never use it. You're safer now than you have ever been. Safer from violent assault, safer from burglary, safer from rape, safer from murder. Buy a lotto ticket the same time you buy your self defense gun because you're just as likely to win as you are to need a gun to defend yourself. That isnt' a reason not to buy it, but you should be realistic in what you're buying it for. Your house isn't likely to burn down either but houses do burn down and I woudlnt' suggest you not keep a fire extinguisher in your kitchen just because a fire isn't likely to happen.
tl;dr: forget the shotgun for self defense, a pistol is good because you could carry it, but consider a "Patrol Carbine" if you really expect trouble.
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - BLINGMW - 07-21-2016
the only thing I keep loaded is the Judge. I still prefer a revolver as I feel the simplicity means I'm most likely to be able to operate it under stress, and as a bonus you have lots of choices on how far you want the projectile(s) to penetrate. And you *can* go to the range and have some fun target shooting with .45LC too. Easy to clean, reliable, small enough to lock away/hide, looks cool.
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - CaptainHenreh - 07-21-2016
BLINGMW Wrote:the only thing I keep loaded is the Judge.
![[Image: tumblr_inline_n80wphfdYR1qd7ceg.gif]](https://31.media.tumblr.com/40d7fa754a26b19c4ae08d14b277b9ec/tumblr_inline_n80wphfdYR1qd7ceg.gif)
BLINGMW Wrote:loaded ... Judge.
![[Image: hdch.gif]](http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/hdch.gif)
BLINGMW Wrote:Judge.
![[Image: 14412490.gif]](https://d.gr-assets.com/hostedimages/1428372278ra/14412490.gif)
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - SlimKlim - 07-21-2016
Why does everyone hate Taurus? My next door neighbor growing up had a bigass Taurus .357 and we used to go blow holes in stuff with that hand cannon all the time.
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - CaptainHenreh - 07-21-2016
SlimKlim Wrote:Why does everyone hate Taurus? My next door neighbor growing up had a bigass Taurus .357 and we used to go blow holes in stuff with that hand cannon all the time.
A: Taurus is garbage. Violation of "cancer meds" rule, poor quality control, poor materials, just poor quality in general.
B: The Taurus Judge in particular (and the S&W governor) is an abomination. .410 shells are terrible for self defense. Universally. It's just bad. .410 is good for squirrels and snakes and not much else. .45 Long Colt (or .454 Casull for the Raging Judge) is fine for self defense, but work better out of dedicated .45LC firearm.
C: Revolvers are waaaaaaaay more complicated (mechanically) than a semi auto, I don't know where the "reliability of a revolver" thing came into play, maybe it was true once, but the only benefit of a revolver is the strength of the platform for big bullets with lots of powder behind them. Otherwise they're heavy, complex, low capacity, with absurdly heavy trigger pulls.
A Taurus judge is just the trifecta of bullshit. :vomit:
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - D_Eclipse9916 - 07-21-2016
CaptainHenreh Wrote:[
As far as your legal liability goes...honestly? Don't worry about it. yes, the dumb public may think scary black rifles are icky, but then you've already shot a guy...it's (generally speaking) an uphill battle if you've reached the place where you're defending yourself in court. Further, show me a single court case where the tools someone chose to justly defend themselves was even mentioned and I'll allow it, but you won't find one. Don't cripple your toolbox just because of what some juror might think about it.
Just a quick look (thats why I am asking! Not debating without hard evidence)
I. DEFINITION OF SELF DEFENSE
A. Self defense is a law of necessity.
B. The amount of force used in self defense must be reasonable under the circumstances.
C. Deadly force cannot be used in self defense unless there is a reasonable fear that the person is in danger of
being killed or suffering great bodily harm.
D. Deadly force is most often defined as using a deadly weapon (see section V, Malice), but hands and fists can
be deadly weapons when they are repeatedly used against an unresisting or incapacitated person.
The Jury determines what "amount of force" is reasonable. Therefore a jury of your peers (who is the public) think an AR is an Assault Rifle might be more inclined to say that was "not reasonable" vs a "shotgun/handgun". I know we tend to recklessly say "fuck that guy", but since I am thinking of this beforehand; due diligence to cover my own ass in case I have to go to the extreme?
Also C. Seems pretty vague. Using hollow points vs a regular bullet could be an argument of deadly force vs non deadly force?
Again, I am not arguing; I am genuinely trying to ask if you have asked yourself these questions and what an answer would be coming from the law. It does seem VA is very favorable to self-defense, but with something as severe as my life on the line; I take the law very seriously.
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - D_Eclipse9916 - 07-21-2016
CaptainHenreh Wrote:A patrol carbine/PDW/"assault weapon" is good for home defense for the same reasons it's good for war. Light weight, low recoil, accurate, easy to control, easy to sling and easy to mount a light to. Don't discount accuracy and follow up shots, if you're concerned about damaging your neighbors, train so you won't miss. Here's an example. Now I'm nothing particularly special, just a computer nerd who likes guns, but all those rounds went into a USPSA "silhouette" target at 25 meters. I absolutely cold NOT repeat that same performance with a pistol for accuracy, nor with a shotgun with speed. A carbine makes a very nice case for itself to be operated by anyone with a relatively small learning curve. AK's are operated by illiterate child soldiers in africa ffs.
I am not even sure my home is 25 meters across :lol:
Also training so I don't miss is like saying get in a race car and "don't hit anything". Exacerbate that by me being woken up at 2AM, my wife screaming, my dogs barking, an unknown "force" on the other side of that door and me deciding on someone's life in a split second. When I was at State Department, a DSS agent show himself during a range day. Had 20+ years of training...still didn't save him from a split second mistake.
Do I need "Light weight, low recoil, accurate, easy to control, easy to sling and easy to mount a light to" when I am sitting behind as much cover as I can 5 meters from the door? It seems for me (FOR ME), I am not sure the advantages outweigh the disadvantage. Am I wrong?
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - JustinG - 07-21-2016
I think you are over analyzing,
Find a case were force was defined as excessive by the weapon used.
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:Do I need "Light weight, low recoil, accurate, easy to control, easy to sling and easy to mount a light to" when I am sitting behind as much cover as I can 5 meters from the door? It seems for me (FOR ME), I am not sure the advantages outweigh the disadvantage. Am I wrong?
Why would you use a Harbor Freight torque wrench if the Snap On wrench is right beside it?
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - D_Eclipse9916 - 07-21-2016
JustinG Wrote:Why would you use a Harbor Freight torque wrench if the Snap On wrench is right beside it?
If it meant me going to jail or not? :lol:
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - CaptainHenreh - 07-21-2016
I mean, again. You can analyze the text of the statute all day, I am not a lawyer and neither are you, but the answer is going to lie in case law. Find me some, in Virginia, where the gun model was singled out to any effect. I don't think you will find it.
I mean do whatever you want, but you're giving up real life tactical advantages in exchange for a hypothetical negative. My 25 meter example was about control. If you can put a bunch of rounds in a target at 25 meters, it will be even easier to do the same at 5m.
Again, do what you like, but you did ask.
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - WRXtranceformed - 07-21-2016
Agree Rex that drywall is drywall and any gun is going to shoot a hole through it but we were talking about engineered firewalls. They are a THICK system of fireboard, fire rated drywall and some other structural materials (including usually a metal framework). They go in between two other stud walls and layers of drywall. I have no clue how much more bulletproof they are than a single sheet of drywall but I have physically witnessed them stand up to a raging townhouse fire in our neighborhood and successfully hold the units and roofing together. Pretty incredible, it's definitely more durable than a single sheet of drywall.
I "train" a lot at the range, getting regular time with my XDM and carry Shield so I feel pretty comfortable hitting what I need to hit within the confines of a home. I would actually feel less comfortable rifle firing at super short range targets with my AR since it's zero'd at a different distance.
DJ your mileage may vary but I would feel a lot better about using a semi auto pistol under duress and in close quarters in your home than I would about worrying whether your 5.56 round is going to punch through an engineered firewall or not. The other question is, would your wife feel comfortable using and defending herself with a carbine? You both need to be able to use whatever you end up with.
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - BLINGMW - 07-21-2016
CaptainHenreh Wrote:A: Taurus is garbage.All can I say is mine's been great for 9 years, never failed to fire and works very smoothly. :dunno:
CaptainHenreh Wrote:B: .410 is good for squirrels and snakes and not much else.00 or 000 buck is a more than adequate defense load, and you can step down from there for less bad guy / wall penetration.
<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-53-the-taurus-judge-revisited/">http://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-t ... revisited/</a><!-- m -->
CaptainHenreh Wrote:C: Revolvers are waaaaaaaay more complicated (mechanically) than a semi auto,I'll take your word for it. I've never torn it down very far, because that's not part of the recommended cleaning procedure. It's by far the easiest gun I have to clean. I find it easier to understand than a semi-auto. It's easier to see if it's loaded, jamming isn't a thing, there's no cycling that cares about how you hold it, and if a fail-to-fire happened, just keep pulling the trigger.
It's a horrible CC gun, I can't guarantee a hit over like 5 yards, 5-6 rounds won't be enough to reliably stop more than 2 motorcycle-gear-wearing meth-heads, it's heavy... but it's my recommendation as a home defense gun for all the other reasons.
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - Ryan T - 07-21-2016
Get what you are comfortable with. I keep a Glock 23 (.40) by the bed with 3 loaded mags. If shit really gets hairy, my duty weapon (Glock 22) is in the closet with an additional 3 mags. I train with those guns several times a month and I'm comfortable with them. An AR is a great home defense tool. There is a reason it is used by our military in a mixture of open field battle as well as close quarters, in-home battles; it works and it work damn well! Generally if you defend yourself with a firearm the type of firearm is not normally admissible in court. Plenty of case law behind that. But if you are still not wanting an AR platform, get a 12ga and train with it, and train with it a lot. Don't fill it with birdshot or trap shot, fill it with buckshot or slugs. If you want something more manuverable get a long barrel pistol. Get a Glock 22 or a Glock 35 with the extended slide. The longer the barrel the more accurate your shot, regardless of target length.
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - D_Eclipse9916 - 07-22-2016
Ryan T Wrote:Get what you are comfortable with. I keep a Glock 23 (.40) by the bed with 3 loaded mags. If shit really gets hairy, my duty weapon (Glock 22) is in the closet with an additional 3 mags. I train with those guns several times a month and I'm comfortable with them. An AR is a great home defense tool. There is a reason it is used by our military in a mixture of open field battle as well as close quarters, in-home battles; it works and it work damn well! Generally if you defend yourself with a firearm the type of firearm is not normally admissible in court. Plenty of case law behind that. But if you are still not wanting an AR platform, get a 12ga and train with it, and train with it a lot. Don't fill it with birdshot or trap shot, fill it with buckshot or slugs. If you want something more manuverable get a long barrel pistol. Get a Glock 22 or a Glock 35 with the extended slide. The longer the barrel the more accurate your shot, regardless of target length.
Thanks guys. I have a lot of thinking and even more research to do! I know I can be a pain but I have to convince myself this is the right thing to do even in the first place.
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - V1GiLaNtE - 07-22-2016
D_Eclipse9916 Wrote:Ryan T Wrote:Get what you are comfortable with. I keep a Glock 23 (.40) by the bed with 3 loaded mags. If shit really gets hairy, my duty weapon (Glock 22) is in the closet with an additional 3 mags. I train with those guns several times a month and I'm comfortable with them. An AR is a great home defense tool. There is a reason it is used by our military in a mixture of open field battle as well as close quarters, in-home battles; it works and it work damn well! Generally if you defend yourself with a firearm the type of firearm is not normally admissible in court. Plenty of case law behind that. But if you are still not wanting an AR platform, get a 12ga and train with it, and train with it a lot. Don't fill it with birdshot or trap shot, fill it with buckshot or slugs. If you want something more manuverable get a long barrel pistol. Get a Glock 22 or a Glock 35 with the extended slide. The longer the barrel the more accurate your shot, regardless of target length.
Thanks guys. I have a lot of thinking and even more research to do! I know I can be a pain but I have to convince myself this is the right thing to do even in the first place.
DJ, not sure how much Xp you have handling (or fondling, however you look at it :dunno: ) of firearms recently, but I'm happy to offer up some of my personal specimens for you/Jess to get a feel of at the range if that helps your research.
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - CaptainHenreh - 07-22-2016
BLINGMW Wrote:I find it easier to understand than a semi-auto. It's easier to see if it's loaded, jamming isn't a thing, there's no cycling that cares about how you hold it, and if a fail-to-fire happened, just keep pulling the trigger.
*shrugs* Whatever you like. I don't see how a press check is any more complicated than swinging a cylinder out, but to each his own. As far as "jamming isn't a thing" I assure you it most certainly is a thing, just when it happens on a revolver you're out of the fight until you get a screwdriver to clear it. Sure it happens less often than with a semi auto, but it's way more serious.
I mean I dunno. I suspect there might, maybe, possibly, potentially be a reason that revolvers have fallen completely out of favor except for niche applications, and that the reason might be "because they kind of suck".
Thayer's got good advice, If you go with a pistol and you're not going to carry it, definitely get a fullsize. The extra capacity in the magazine and larger grip will result in more control surface, which is always good. Sometimes people make the mistake of getting a "small" gun because a female will use it but small guns are snappier and more difficult to control. Unless the weight causes some difficulty (like with a deagle or something) bigger is generally better. I'd also go 9mm for a pistol (though this fight rages still in the corners of the internet) because modern bullet construction has made the terminal ballistics of 9 vs 40 vs 45 to be nearly identical whereas 17 rounds > 15 rounds > 12 rounds. But really, don't think about it TOO much. Find a gun that's comfortable and in your budget and looks cool. As Ivan Chesnokov (PBUH) wisely states:
Quote:THIS MAN LOOKS FOR PISTOL TO HIDE ON PERSON TO SHOOT MAN FROM STREET WHO WOULD DO CRIME TO HIM. MAN WHO WOULD DO CRIME IS NOT LIKE BANZAI CHARGE OF JAPANESE INFANTRY. HE IS NOT IN "GROUND OF DEATH" FROM EPISTLE OF WISE SUN TZU. MAN WHO WOULD DO CRIME IS NOT FIGHTING FOR LIFE OR FREEDOM OF PEOPLE. HE FIGHT ONLY FOR THINGS, HE CAN GET SOMEWHERE ELSE FROM SOMEONE ELSE. THIS MAN DOES NOT FIGHT TO DEATH. THIS MAN FIGHT ONLY UNTIL IS CLEAR MAN WITH PISTOL RESISTS AND SO HE RUN AWAY.
PISTOL OF 9 MILLIMETERS OR CALIBER OF .45 IS GREAT SHOCKING HOLE IN BODY. IS GIANT SPOUT OF BLOOD AND PAIN OF MORTAL WOUND. MORE MEN DIE FROM BULLET OF THESE TWO CALIBERS THAN ALL OTHERS IN HISTORY OF WORLD.
I ADVISE AND YOU LISTEN. LAST TIME ARMY CARRY BAD PISTOL INTO COMBAT WAS NAMBU OF JAPANESE EMPIRE. SINCE THAT TIME MILLIONS OF MEN CARRY PISTOL OF 9 MILLIMETERS. IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR THEM WITH STUPID GENEVA TREATY BALL BULLET. IS GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU WITH TEN ROUBLES PER CARTRIDGE HOLLOW NOSE BULLET AND FANCY BRASS OF NICKEL PLATING. YOU PRACTICE WITH MANY MAGAZINE, YOU CARRY MANY CARTRIDGE. WHEN MAN WAVES GUN AT YOU, FILL HIM WITH BULLETS FAST AND STRAIGHT. MORE HOLES IS BETTER THAN BIG HOLES. CARRY PISTOL WITH LARGE MAGAZINE AND MANY CARTRIDGE.
IN THIS WAY YOU DEFEAT CRIMINAL.
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - SlimKlim - 07-22-2016
Bug-a-Salt Fly Kill Count: 1
I swapped out the "birdshot" table salt for some "buckshot" kosher and the results were devastating, as you can see.
![[Image: 0EeW8xY.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/0EeW8xY.jpg)
Also, Lauren left me unsupervised on Amazon too long and now I have a pictany rail and cheap airsoft laser sight on the way. :lol:
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - Kaan - 07-22-2016
we can also throw in some various pistols to test drive if you want
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - WRXtranceformed - 07-22-2016
Yep 9mm is where it's at. My XDM with the factory extended mag holds 19 rounds +1 in the chamber...probably 18 more than you would ever need. The only reason we have a smaller pistol for my wife is that her hands are tiny (due to medical issues her body basically stopped growing when she was like 13). She physically can't get her hands around a gun like that comfortably, but the SR22 was one of the only ones that she felt comfortable holding
Re: Official MM Firearms Thread - CaptainHenreh - 07-22-2016
SlimKlim Wrote:Bug-a-Salt Fly Kill Count: 1I love this.
I swapped out the "birdshot" table salt for some "buckshot" kosher and the results were devastating, as you can see.
Also, Lauren left me unsupervised on Amazon too long and now I have a pictany rail and cheap airsoft laser sight on the way. :lol: